November 2001
- Digimask Technology. Matt Owen
- Digimask Technology. Ian Macintosh
- Call for submissions to Game Programming Gems 3 Andrew Kirmse
- Virtual environments for education? Edward Glowacki
- Virtual environments for education? Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Virtual environments for education? Bruce Mitchener
- Virtual environments for education? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Virtual environments for education? Dr. Cat
- Virtual environments for education? Mats Lidstrom
- Playing NPCs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- A Hello, and thanks... o. rchaeus
- NPCS Mr Dylan Tovey
- Story in MM*s [was ] Joe Andrieu
From Jeff Cole:
> From: "Joe Andrieu" <jandrieu@caltech.edu>
>> From: Jeff Cole <jeff.cole@mindspring.com>
>>> I disagree. Or, more accurately, I disagree that it is the
>>> designer's responsibility to directly supply context. To
>>> directly supply context limits the depth of the context and
>>> story. It is the designer's responsibility to provide the tools
>>> by which players can create context and story.
>> Ah hah! It seems we have a fundamental disagreement here. IMO,
>> there is much to be said for the paradigmatic view that "Context
>> is the content", to revise McLuhan.
> Though I might not have been clear, you misunderstand me. I do
> not consider content equivalent to context. Indeed, I argue it is
> a mistake to equate them.
It isn't a mistake, it's a particular perspective on the
situation. In fact, I'm a little puzzled by your use of the terms,
as it is directly contrary to common usage. Content is generally
regarded as the story, the direct thread presented for the player to
do/follow/be/consume. Context is the backstory, theme, setting,
milieu, background, etc. This is the common usage for content-driven
web sites (Wall Street Journal, CNN, etc.), in contrast to
context-driven web sites or services where the users provide the
content (EBay, USENET, etc.)
MM*s at this point are dominated by context, predominantly relying
on the sandbox metaphor, with delightful exceptions at the Eternal
City and Skotos where GM-crafter stories play a more active role in
the experience. In fact, it would seem that your argument is that
developers should be loathe to provide content, rather than
context... so, I'm not sure what your real point is.
> For MM*'s, developers should be loathe to provide context beyond
> the milieu and underlying game physics. Ongoing context should be
> limited to subtle pressures exerted on gameplay (i.e. economic
> pressures, MOB migrations, spawn/drop rates, experience
> distributions, etc.). At the same time, developers should supply
> quite a bit of content (i.e. MOB types, items, and most
> importantly, options).
> To the extent that a developer allows the players the freedom to
> create context through the disposition of the content, the gaming
> experience will be likewise more immersive. Similarly, given
> persistence and MM* (PerMM*?), the more context or "story"
> developers impose on the population, the less immersive the gaming
> experience. [Note: the second statement is oversimplified for the
> sake of argument, but the sentiment is sound.]
If you are saying that freedom to impact the world is a good
thing. I agree. As for "Story" diminishing immersion, I could not
disagree more. Why should it diminish immersion? People get sucked
into a good story all the time in other, more mature media. I
expect you have assumptions behind your definition of story that are
limiting your approach to this design issue. Or perhaps as you say,
the paradigm of single-player games are dominating your approach to
applying story in MM*s.
[snip]
> That none of those games qualify as PerMM*, demonstrates the
> degree to which the single-player design paradigm permeates your
> analysis. Conceding for the moment that I have espoused a
> paradigm sufficient to analyze, it should be obvious that such
> paradigm applies to PerMM* design.
Actually, my analysis has nothing to do with single player design
paradigm. My entire focus is on building a company around
interactive stories in multi-player environments. It is a hard
problem. And while your tool-centric paradigm is certainly valid, I
suggest it is unnecessarily limiting and therefore should not be
presented as a design truth for MM*s.
>> Whichever you mean, as long as you are restraining your design to
>> a Game, then feel free to focus on tools and allow users to build
>> their own content/context. That's a fine paradigm. Makes good
>> games. Makes for entertaining products.
>> But don't think that the limits of this paradigm make sense when
>> considering the entirety of interactive entertainment.
> I am not addressing the entirety of interactive entertainment. I
> am addressing games that are PerMM*. It seems from your post that
> you are far more interested in interactivity with the game itself
> rather than interactivity among concurrent players. While
> selfish, it is in no way unreasonable. However, it is also does
> not apply to my argument.
Again, if all you aspire to is games, then feel free to implement
games. That's a worthy goal. If you are asserting that MM*s are
games and no more than games, I suggest that you are missing the
greater opportunity in this media format.
MM*s are a new medium for interaction, expression, and experience.
Currently, MM*s are dominated by D&D style game mechanics
implemented almost directly into virtual reality simulations.
That's a fine model. But it is also only the first successful
model. It will not be the last. Limiting the discussion of MM*s to
games is a bit short sighted.
>> IMNSHO, there is a phenomenal opportunity in interactive
>> entertainment which has never been possible in any other
>> medium. For the first time, the media format is capable of
>> dynamically generating first-person story experiences for members
>> of the audience, where players get to be the hero in their own
>> adventure, unfolding through the nature exploration of the
>> environment and driven by their own motivations, curiosity, and
>> emotional needs.
> Everything you just described can be better implemented in a
> single-player game. In a PerMM*, developers cannot provide for
> every player playing the hero because context is necessarily
> dependent upon the actions of others.
Again, you seem to have assumptions about story that I do not. The
holy grail for interactive stories must include the ability to
simultaneously share that experience with your friends. Simply
indulging in a single-player fantasy ride is not the end-all-be-all
of interactive stories. My goal as a designer is to dynamically
craft interactive stories for thousands of players in a consistent
shared environment, where each player's story is woven in with other
players in a game-wide tapestry.
>> In other words, we have the opportunity to transform a free-form
>> interaction into a well-formed story arc with all the emotional
>> engagement of classic drama.
> This is impossible given a PerMM* of any size and population. It
> cannot be well-formed if only you consider the differences in
> time-played for players. It cannot be a single story for many of
> the same reasons.
Perhaps it is impossible given your approach to the problem. I know
of at least two approaches that scale on a linear basis, so size is
not the concrete wall you suggest.
>> It is true that no one has done this successfully yet. But it
>> is, IMO, a worthy goal... Simply asserting that it is not the
>> designers responsibility to do so limits the perspective on what
>> we create.
> Not so. I argue that developers should provide players the tools
> (i.e. "content") to develop their stories ingame.
Umm... it does limit the perspective on what we create. You are
saying "don't do that" and "you can't do that". I'm saying "go for
it" and "find a way". Any rational observer must conclude that you
are limiting the approach to the future of MM*s.
>> Players don't really want to create their own stories. They want
>> to live them. When was the last time your average player sat
>> down and crafted their own story from start to finish. As a short
>> prose story? As a play? A home video movie? Shockwave? Anything?
>> People prefer buying the works of professional storytellers for
>> the same reason they like to buy clothes designed and
>> manufactured by professionals.
[snip]
>> I could not disagree more. Respectfully, so, but
>> strongly. Players rarely have the first clue about how to develop
>> stories. Current hobbyist players are willing to go to great
>> lengths, but the average Joe will not. Are you aware of the % of
>> buyers of the Sims ever actually uploaded a full story? (hint:
>> it's not a lot).
> Again, you misunderstand. I argue that developers should provide
> players the freedom to let the stories develop through playing the
> game. Players always have a much better intuitive grasp on
> gameplay (economics, physics, etc.) than the developers. By
> providing players with strong contextual foundation (game physics)
> and freedom to explore the gamespace (not just the environmental
> "space," but also the feature "space"), players will necessarily
> have the opportunity to enjoy and participate in a much more
> immersive gaming experience.
I never said stories should develop any other way. Again, you seem
to have assumptions which limit your thinking on this topic.
As for players having a better grasp on gameplay than developers, I
can only shake my head and ask "What planet are you living on?"
Perhaps you believe that as a player *you* have a better grasp of
gameplay than the designers who clearly offend you with their
misguided inability to design good games. However, in nearly all
professions, the professionals are better at it than the lay person.
Give me one other field, excepting sex, where the non-professional
can produce better results than the professional. Your claim is
pretty outrageous.
Perhaps you mean that the player is the ultimate judge of the
quality of the design. That I agree with. No matter what a designer
thinks, if players hate it, then it sucks. No matter how cool or
elegant. But that doesn't mean the player is better at designing
games.
Do you only watch movies or television or read books created by
non-professionals, by people who just love to watch or read movies
who thereby somehow acquire the ability to create phenomenal
creative product?
I'm not buying it. Give me the good stuff.
> The condescending attitude that somehow (beyond providing the
> gamespace) the PerMM* developers, rather than other players, are
> better suited to entertain is rather shocking. Were I given to
> hyperbole, I would invoke Hybris, Ate and Nemesis.
It's not condescending because it isn't elitist. Can you write like
Tolstoy or Poe? Can you act like Yul Brynner or Jack Nicholson?
Can you direct like Spielberg or Tarantino?
Probably not. It doesn't mean those who can are better than you. It
just means their better writers/actors/directors than you. It is
obvious that some people are better at certain things than
others. When we care enough about it, we pay those people to do what
they do best.
Asserting that "average" game player is always going to be better
than an experienced and skilled professional is simply ludicrous.
If you disagree, I suggest you develop a MM*s where the rules and
gameplay are determined by democratic vote or a market-style auction
for features and rules. If you are right, the game will quickly
become the hottest product on the market as it maximizes the input
and contribution from all those players who are better suited to
design than someone who has dedicated their professional life to it.
The best designers will almost always be better at designing games
than your average player. It's simple statistics applied to the
realm of talent.
-j
--
Joe Andrieu
Realtime Drama
joe@andrieu.net
+1 (626) 395-8045 - player-driven content? Sasha Hart
- player-driven content? Paul Schwanz
- player-driven content? Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- (no subject) Koster, Raph
- (no subject) Peter Tyson
- WebRPG Travis Casey
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Brian Hook
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Nathan F. Yospe
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Mats Lidstrom
- [TECH][SURVEY] non-mainstream languages? Bruce Mitchener
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
- "sweeping change"? Sellers, Mike
- "sweeping change"? Michael Tresca
- "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
- "sweeping change"? Matt Mihaly
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- Re[4]: Expectations of in-game reality Travis Casey
- Cynical at a young age T.A.J.BARTON
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- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) John Mariotti
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Matt Chatterley
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sean K
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Don Healey
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
- Some survey results... Jeremy Noetzelman
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Dr. Cat
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Dr. Cat
- Some survey results... Derek Snider
- Some survey results... Andrew Wilson
- Some survey results... Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Leland Hulbert II
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Dave Rickey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Sellers, Mike
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Valerio Santinelli
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Brian Hook
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Lars Duening
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Matt Mihaly
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Travis Casey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Phillip Lenhardt
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Don Healey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Koster, Raph
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ling Lo
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Ryan S. Dancey
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Paul Schwanz
- Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead Michael Tresca
- [DGN] The Human Condition Kwon Ekstrom
- Multi-protagonist stories. Paul Schwanz
- Multi-protagonist stories. Matt Mihaly
- licensing Adam Martin
- Tabletop RPGs and Inspiration (was: no subject) Sami Kosonen
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Brian Hook
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Licensing PnP RPGs was "sweeping change"? Freeman, Jeff
- Good Writing (was: Role-Playing Games Are Not Dead) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Buehler
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Bruce Mitchener
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Mark Eaton
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Travis Casey
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Andrew Hefford
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Matt Mihaly
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Marian Griffith
- New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games Dave Rickey
- Storied Games Travis Casey
- Storied Games Paul Schwanz
- Storied Games Marian Griffith
- Storied Games Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games John W. Pierce
- Storied Games Lee Sheldon
- Storied Games jsmithn@hotmail.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games Miroslav Silovic
- Storied Games Derek Licciardi
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Storied Games amanda@alfar.com
- Storied Games Matt Mihaly
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Bruce Mitchener
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment/New Laws Marian Griffith
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Matt Mihaly
- Player Manipulation of Environment Andrew Hefford {Coregen}
- Player Manipulation of Environment Eli Stevens
- Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
- Player Manipulation of Environment Paul Schwanz
- Player Manipulation of Environment Adam Martin
- Player Manipulation of Environment Jasper McChesney
- Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Player Manipulation of Environment Ling Lo
- Player Manipulation of Environment rayzam
- Player Manipulation of Environment Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Player Manipulation of Environment Marc Hernandez
- Fw: AVATARS2001 this weekend Frank Crowell
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview Dave Kennerly
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Kathleen Foley
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Dave Rickey
- Storytelling and Professionals (was: ) Lee Sheldon
- not about telling stories Joe Andrieu
- not about telling stories Freeman, Jeff
- not about telling stories Travis Casey
- Storytelling and Professionals (was) Lee Sheldon
- A Non-Cumulative Character MMORPG? Heresy! Paul Schwanz
- Storytelling and Professionals (was) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Zak Jarvis
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Sasha Hart
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Christopher Kohnert
- Asheron's Call, Story and Population Density. Lee Sheldon
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms vognsen@post10.tele.dk
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Sanxion
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Per Vognsen
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms David Bennett
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Eli Stevens
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Christopher Kohnert
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Nicholas E. Walker
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Marcus Johansson
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Tech: Pathfinding with Rooms Leland Hulbert II
- [NEWS] Lineage: The Blood Pledge Interview - Richard's blunder :) Mathieu Castelli
- Subject: New laws. (was: Player Manipulation of Environment) John Robert Arras
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers Andrew Kirmse
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers James C. Nugen
- Meridian 59 purchased by developers Frank Crowell
- [STORY] Story and population size Adam Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
- [STORY] Story and population size Timothy Dang
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size Vincent Archer
- [STORY] Story and population size Christopher Kohnert
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Derek Licciardi
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Freeman
- [STORY] Story and population size Travis Nixon
- [STORY] Story and population size Wells, Thomas
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size John Buehler
- [STORY] Story and population size Michael Tresca
- [STORY] Story and population size Matt Mihaly
- [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
- [STORY] Story and population size Jeff Cole
- [STORY] Story and population size Dave Rickey
- [STORY] Story and population size Paul Schwanz
- [STORY] Story and population size Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [STORY] Story and population size Andrew Hefford
- [STORY] Story and population size Bryan "Cyngon" Helmkamp
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Marian Griffith
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [STORY] Story and population size Bruce Mitchener
- [STORY] Story and population size Sellers, Mike
- [STORY] Story and population size Bobby Martin
- [GENETICS] Evolving prey populations Adam Martin
- Stories, why? Ian Collyer
- Stories, why? amanda@alfar.com
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Rob Ellis II
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Lee Sheldon
- Purchase of Meridian 59 by Near Death Studios Sellers, Mike
- Community Building Sanvean
- doesNotUnderstand behavior in C++ (was: Spoofs) Eli Stevens
- Importance of player roles Sasha Hart
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) lhulbert@hotmail.com
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) John Robert Arras
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Leland Hulbert II
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) holding99@mindspring.com
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Dave Kennerly
- RTS aspects in MUDs (LONG) Takis Kalogiratos
- Agora, a Wiki for MUD topics Bruce Mitchener