August 2000
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook William Katzell
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- Release of Blood Drops ver 0.1 adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping -- An anecdote Zak Jarvis
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Dmitri Zagidulin
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Greg Underwood
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Nathan Clemons
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Tamzen Cannoy
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Matt Chatterley
- World Event Model adam@treyarch.com
- World Event Model Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Christian Loth
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matt Chatterley
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Sellers, Michael
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot rayzam
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot adam@treyarch.com
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Jon Callas
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Sanvean
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. adam@treyarch.com
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Bruce
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Matthew Mihaly
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Mud Evolution Koster, Raph
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Lord Ashon
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Neddy Seagoon
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Christoph Seifert
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Mud Metrics Justin Rogers
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Josh Rollyson
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Merillat
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Shiovitz
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Scion
- Law of Resource Congestion ens017@mizzou.edu
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Andy
- World Event Model (Christian Loth) Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] Christoph Seifert
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Majesty (was: Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind) Chris Jacobson
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] (long/technical) Christoph Seifert
- Skotos News & Skotos @ Gencon Christopher Allen
- Harry Potter stuff Timothy Dang
- Harry Potter stuff Chris Gray
- Harry Potter stuff Matthew Mihaly
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Brett
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Koster, Raph
- Constraint as a Design Problem Christopher Allen
- an opportunity Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Norman Short
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Schubert, Damion
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Shawn L Johnston
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Vincent Archer
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
> From: "John Buehler" <johnbue@email.msn.com>
>
> > Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
> > Sent: Monday, August 28, 2000 12:59 PM
>
> > Mostly, I agree with what you are saying regarding common crime scenarios.
> > However, I'm not sure that "competitive" is even the best way to
> > describe these
> > scenarios. I see "criminal" and "competitive" as vastly different
> > things. Is
> > it always criminal to actively oppose the gameplay of another
> > player? Or can it
> > be merely competitive without being criminal?
>
> Criminal is a point on the competitive scale. Consider the current legal
> proceedings involving Microsoft. Microsoft competes vigorously, and has been
> labelled criminal in the extent of their competition. Consider the Bored of
> the Rings monologue from Saruman while in his tower. He attempts to present a
> war as a competitive business situation. Crimes are essentially normal
> behavior taken to some undesireable extreme.
>
Perhaps, but criminal is not an *arbitrary* point on the competitive scale. It isn't
that Microsoft has simply gotten too competitive. Rather, they've let their desire
for success take them over clearly defined boundaries and rules. Inside of these
boundaries and rules, competition is a *great* thing. The rules help to insure that
all are competing on an even playing field. Outside of these boundaries, competition
becomes criminal.
> > Why should 'we' ensure that the folks interested in peacetime pursuits are
> > insulated? Why should we not give them the means and incentive to
> > ensure this
> > themselves, by paying taxes, gaining access to resources, and using these
> > resources to expand their empire's territory and security? This is what
> > competition is all about. I agree that there should be
> > consequences for immoral
> > gameplay, but this doesn't mean that there should not be
> > consequences for poor
> > gameplay. To me, this is the distinction between criminal and competitive.
>
> We should ensure that folks interested in peacetime pursuits get to play the
> game their way because that's their form of entertainment. Just as a solo
> player likes to be around other players, players interested in peaceful
> pursuits for their character like to hear news of what's going on out on the
> front lines, etc. If they're interested in joining the war, they go find the
> war. The war shouldn't find them. These games need not be predicated on
> killing everything that moves and taking anything not nailed down.
>
While I understand the desire to reach the broadest market, I think that it is
possible to widen the focus too much. I think that players who want peace can coexist
with players who want to war. However, when you *guarantee* peace to players, I think
you've crossed the line and have moved outside of any vision for *realistic*
interaction. Evidently, you want some interaction between the ones who have carte
blanche immunity from war and the ones who are engaged in war. But it will be very
difficult to keep such interaction from directly influencing the war. And if it
influences the war, then it should not be invulnerable. If those who are farmers and
merchants can impact the war, why can't the war impact them? But perhaps you won't
allow any action which can truly impact either side? At this point, I think you'd be
better off to provide two different games, or the same game on different servers.
<snip of "feathering" concept>
> Why do I bother pursuing all this? So that I can attract a variety of gamers.
> People who want war can find war. People who want to build a farm can build a
> farm. People who want to get into stamp collecting can get into stamp
> collecting. When the stamp collector decides that he's had enough of that, he
> can move onto something a bit more dangerous: ferret farming. The individual
> games that the player involves his character in must be relatively stable.
> The idea that the game world is predicated on surviving a bunch of nuts in
> armor with big knives is blatantly silly.
>
The game world *will be* predicated on surviving a bunch of nuts, whether those nuts
have big knives or not. ;-)
> Note that there's nothing saying that people can't pursue stamp collecting in
> a war zone. If that's what they want, that's fine. But if a stamp collecting
> enthusiast has been attracted to the game with the promise that they'll find a
> community in which they can seek out misprints, sheets, first day covers and
> other philatelic pursuits, is it reasonable to expect that they also have to
> run from wars constantly? That they could have their entire collection wiped
> out by arson?
>
Stamp collectors and warmongers coexist in real life. Stamp collectors, however, are
not *guaranteed* a life of peacful existence. In fact, it behooves stamp collectors
to pay taxes and vote in order to promote a government which will protect their way of
life. If stamp collectors are given no guarantee of immunity from war in real life,
why should they be given one in a virtual life? Yet this lack of a guarantee doesn't
seem to keep stamp collectors from enjoying their pursuits in real life. Why should
it keep them from enjoying a game? Of course, warmongers are not guaranteed conquest
either. How can you cast your net wider than this?
<another snip>
> And I'm trying to acknowledge the fact that player characters have no
> conscience. They don't feel pain or remorse, and so on. The behavior of a
> player character is not human. They will run until they collapse in
> exhaustion. And when they've recovered, they'll do it all over again. They
> can engage in bloody combat day after day. This is all superhuman, and is
> done in the name of entertainment. I understand that. But we also have to
> factor that into the way the world works. These conscienceless superhumans
> have to be kept in line by unrealistic measures.
>
Why can't we make them other than conscienceless superhumans so that they can be kept
in line by realistic measures?
Yes, player characters have no conscience. But is there no way to give them one? (Of
course, the answer is that a method for giving them a realistic conscience doesn't
exist at the moment. However, can we not come up with some crude steps in the right
direction? I think that there are some things we could try in order to simulate a
character's conscience.) Why not make the virtual world more like the real world by
trying to give characters a conscience and restricting unrealistic superhuman
capabilities instead of making it less like the real world by inserting arbitrary and
unrealistic guarantees about a player's ability to pursue stamp collecting? In the
real world, *all* things are permissible...even pursuing war against stamp
collectors...but not all things are expedient. Stamp collectors should be given the
ability to ensure that making war against them is not expedient, but I think that
making it impermissible is a step in the wrong direction.
--Phinehas - UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Vincent Archer
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants Ian Macintosh
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants Jeff Freeman
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Richard A. Bartle
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Zak Jarvis
- Object Representations? KevinL
- Object Representations? Lazarus
- Object Representations? Patrick Dughi
- Object Representations? Phillip Lenhardt
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Mordengaard
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Re:[gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) Christoph Seifert
- UO Virtues Schubert, Damion
- UO Virtues John Buehler
- Object Representations? Robert Zubek
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Joe Andrieu
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Bruce
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] John Buehler
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matthew Mihaly
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Michael Tresca
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Milne, Alistair
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ian Macintosh
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Nathan Clemons
- Matching and Maximizing: How players choose between activities John Hopson
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Ananda Dawnsinger
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Crime Ben
- Cooperation vs Competition Ron Moore
- Cooperation vs Competition Jo Dillon
- [Moebius] MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) KevinL
- FW: UO rants John Buehler
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Lovecraft
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Shawn L Johnston
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Matthew Mihaly
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Zak Jarvis
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- Playerkilling Pacifists Matthew Mihaly
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- url for The Hundred Years War Ron Moore
- url for The Hundred Years War Marc Bowden
- [paper] The Sacred and the Virtual: Religion in Multi-User Virtual Reality Jon Lambert
- Avatar rights redux Koster, Raph
- Avatar rights redux Dave Rickey
- Holidays Jeff Freeman
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Brad Wyble
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Norman Short
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Warren Powell
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Fraud (was: UO rants) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fraud (was: UO rants) John Buehler
- Transportation Ron Moore
- Transportation Madrona Tree
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) gmiller@classic-games.com
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) Erik Jarvi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Kristen L. Koster
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Patrick Dughi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Travis Casey
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Alex
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Lazarus
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Marc Bowden