August 2000
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook William Katzell
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- Release of Blood Drops ver 0.1 adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping -- An anecdote Zak Jarvis
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Dmitri Zagidulin
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Greg Underwood
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Nathan Clemons
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Tamzen Cannoy
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Matt Chatterley
- World Event Model adam@treyarch.com
- World Event Model Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Christian Loth
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matt Chatterley
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Sellers, Michael
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot rayzam
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot adam@treyarch.com
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Jon Callas
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Sanvean
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. adam@treyarch.com
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Bruce
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Matthew Mihaly
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Mud Evolution Koster, Raph
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Lord Ashon
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Neddy Seagoon
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Christoph Seifert
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Mud Metrics Justin Rogers
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Josh Rollyson
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Merillat
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Shiovitz
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Scion
- Law of Resource Congestion ens017@mizzou.edu
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Andy
- World Event Model (Christian Loth) Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] Christoph Seifert
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Majesty (was: Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind) Chris Jacobson
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] (long/technical) Christoph Seifert
- Skotos News & Skotos @ Gencon Christopher Allen
- Harry Potter stuff Timothy Dang
- Harry Potter stuff Chris Gray
- Harry Potter stuff Matthew Mihaly
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Brett
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Koster, Raph
- Constraint as a Design Problem Christopher Allen
- an opportunity Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Norman Short
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Schubert, Damion
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Shawn L Johnston
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Vincent Archer
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants Ian Macintosh
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants Jeff Freeman
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Richard A. Bartle
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Zak Jarvis
- Object Representations? KevinL
- Object Representations? Lazarus
- Object Representations? Patrick Dughi
- Object Representations? Phillip Lenhardt
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Mordengaard
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Re:[gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) Christoph Seifert
- UO Virtues Schubert, Damion
- UO Virtues John Buehler
- Object Representations? Robert Zubek
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Joe Andrieu
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Bruce
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] John Buehler
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matthew Mihaly
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Michael Tresca
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Milne, Alistair
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ian Macintosh
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Nathan Clemons
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Patrick Dughi
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Phillip Lenhardt
On Wed, Aug 23, 2000 at 11:46:14AM -0500, Patrick Dughi wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, Nathan Clemons wrote:
>
> > * HTML-like styles make it easy for server-side developers and clients to
> > understand. Perhaps something more XML-ish is in order, but I wouldn't
> > know. Never played with the stuff. Something along this line is also
> > easier for the clients to develop and render to the viewer/player.
>
> It's easier for the clients, but has the same problem that was
> described before with the LISP-based parsing engine; It's difficult for a
> client to seperate what 'ought to be' in text to what 'is'. Even with a
> parsing scheme, there still exists the ability to spoof or fake out
> someone. Imagine something like IRC using a system like this - you could
> easily fake out a client, and force them to download (maybe even run)
> files, log off, basically run any command through clever use of output.
It is the server's job to properly encapsulate data that came from another
client for presentation to your client. It is an old and well-understood
problem and not very complex at all to do.
> Worse, if you're using this one channel for the data transfer,
> everything else waits on it. I'll assume you would just use the text
> parsing method for describing where to pull the data from or how to act on
> given info, instead of providing the data itself.
I assume that you mean that by using only one channel for both data and
control you may end up needing to send control information but having to
wait for the data to finish transmitting or vice-versa. If so, that is
not true, take a look at how the telnet protocol embeds control information
at arbitrary points in the data stream by reserving char 255 as an escape
character and ensuring that any escape characters in the data stream get
converted.
> Easier to write, and easy to abuse.
Lazy programmers get what they deserve.
> > * Security is a matter of degree. I wouldn't allow people to pass HTML
> > tags to my CGIs in most circumstances, nor would I allow players to pass
> > MXP tags to the MUD, in most circumstances. The amount that the client has
> > to "trust" the server, IMHO, is extremely limited.
> >
> Of course, in a CGI, you're reciving a specific sort of data in a
> specific listed style, be it post, form whatever data. The problem is not
> your server though. We're not worried if our mud server can parse the
> data to act on it. We're worried that our clients have to. If we return
> to your HTML metaphor, you're expecting your client (the browser) to know
> which data is valid or not, and all it has to go on is the data itself;
>
> Your client gets "<run_command>some_command</run_command>", and it's the
> same whether someone caused that to appear on their screen, or the mud
> 'legally' delivered that piece of info to them. In the end, you're giving
> them a text string with no source identifier possible (cause it'd be text,
> and that can be duplicated).
I have no idea what your argument against Nathan's clear and compelling
CGI analogy is. The client is in communication only with the server, the
server properly encapsulates any data that comes from other clients. End of
story.
> I don't want to bring up the OSI layer model, but it clealy shows
> flaws in this case. You're taking data intended for the presentation layer
> ("Uniform means for a remote host to inform the local client how to
> present the data, like HTML code") putting in the application layer
> ("Direct interface to the user, shielding them from all underlying
> layers"), and then forcing the client to work backwards, from the app
> layer, to the presentation layer, and then your client still has to deal
> with the layer below that (session) to actually affect the changes
> described in the presentation layer.
I assume you would fix this by opening up your second socket. Plenty of other
protocols/formats that span the same layers of the OSI model without using
two socket connections, why should a mud protocol be different?
> > What other technologies are there? Still open to suggestion. :)
>
> If you're going to go through the trouble of making a client for a
> mud, don't bother with the added trouble of encapsulating information,
> sending it to a client, forcing the client to decode it, and then act on
> it. Just open a seperate socket, and force the information down that.
> You want an immersive 3-D world, you're going to need to do this anyway,
> since you can hardly have real-time reactions on a multiplayer system if
> you're dependant upon parsing text messages sent via telnet. That's just
> nonsensical.
If the text message format is optimized for real-time multiplayer 3-D, I
don't see it being "nonsensical". And as for opening another socket, why
is it easier to code a client to do that than just recognize control info
on the data socket? - MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Jeff Freeman
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Phillip Lenhardt
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) KevinL
- Matching and Maximizing: How players choose between activities John Hopson
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Ananda Dawnsinger
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Crime Ben
- Cooperation vs Competition Ron Moore
- Cooperation vs Competition Jo Dillon
- [Moebius] MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) KevinL
- FW: UO rants John Buehler
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Lovecraft
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Shawn L Johnston
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Matthew Mihaly
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Zak Jarvis
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- Playerkilling Pacifists Matthew Mihaly
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- url for The Hundred Years War Ron Moore
- url for The Hundred Years War Marc Bowden
- [paper] The Sacred and the Virtual: Religion in Multi-User Virtual Reality Jon Lambert
- Avatar rights redux Koster, Raph
- Avatar rights redux Dave Rickey
- Holidays Jeff Freeman
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Brad Wyble
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Norman Short
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Warren Powell
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Fraud (was: UO rants) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fraud (was: UO rants) John Buehler
- Transportation Ron Moore
- Transportation Madrona Tree
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) gmiller@classic-games.com
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) Erik Jarvi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Kristen L. Koster
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Patrick Dughi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Travis Casey
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Alex
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Lazarus
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Marc Bowden