August 2000
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook William Katzell
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- Release of Blood Drops ver 0.1 adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping -- An anecdote Zak Jarvis
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Dmitri Zagidulin
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Greg Underwood
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Nathan Clemons
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Tamzen Cannoy
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Matt Chatterley
- World Event Model adam@treyarch.com
- World Event Model Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Christian Loth
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matt Chatterley
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Sellers, Michael
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot rayzam
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot adam@treyarch.com
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Jon Callas
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Sanvean
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. adam@treyarch.com
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Bruce
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Matthew Mihaly
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Mud Evolution Koster, Raph
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Lord Ashon
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Neddy Seagoon
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Christoph Seifert
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Mud Metrics Justin Rogers
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Josh Rollyson
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Merillat
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Shiovitz
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Scion
- Law of Resource Congestion ens017@mizzou.edu
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Andy
- World Event Model (Christian Loth) Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] Christoph Seifert
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Majesty (was: Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind) Chris Jacobson
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] (long/technical) Christoph Seifert
- Skotos News & Skotos @ Gencon Christopher Allen
- Harry Potter stuff Timothy Dang
- Harry Potter stuff Chris Gray
- Harry Potter stuff Matthew Mihaly
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Brett
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Koster, Raph
- Constraint as a Design Problem Christopher Allen
- an opportunity Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Norman Short
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Schubert, Damion
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Shawn L Johnston
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Vincent Archer
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants Ian Macintosh
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants Jeff Freeman
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Richard A. Bartle
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Zak Jarvis
- Object Representations? KevinL
- Object Representations? Lazarus
- Object Representations? Patrick Dughi
- Object Representations? Phillip Lenhardt
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Mordengaard
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Re:[gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) Christoph Seifert
- UO Virtues Schubert, Damion
- UO Virtues John Buehler
- Object Representations? Robert Zubek
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Joe Andrieu
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Bruce
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] John Buehler
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matthew Mihaly
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
On Thu, 24 Aug 2000, Matthew Mihaly wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Aug 2000, John Buehler wrote:
>
> > There are some ugly results that have yet to be tackled:
> >
> > 1. Loans of items must involve some kind of contract system that the game
> > can enforce.
An interesting point, which I've never considered, to be truthful. Its
not too hard to envisage how a system might be set up for this. However,
it can be simulated by players - you might ask for some collateral or a
deposit on an item, and only return it when the item is given back, for
instance. Of course, one of you can always rip the other off, which means
that the only recourse is threat of force (much like in the real world,
occasionally!), and I should observe that the game world which I was most
recently involved in building was to have been set up in such a way that
crimes are defined in a location dependant way. Eg:
If I rob you in a town, the guards will take a great interest.
If I rob you on a highway between two towns, the guards from either might
be intersted - if it happened often, they might begin to mount patrols
and enforce that area too (although smaller towns would not - their
guards would be too few in numbers to judge it effective).
If I rob you in the middle of a forest, away from a town, the law will
most likely have nothing to do with it.
> > 2. I can hand you an item under contract, then bolt, preventing you from
> > fulfilling the contract. Next thing you know, we have arbitrage, with
> > gamemasters having to fill the job of mediator.
> >
> > 3. It is a crime to assault another person, but not to defend one's self.
> > This says that my enemies can spend a long, long time preparing for their
> > assault on me, and I cannot take proactive steps to prevent them from
> > completing their plans - if my proactive steps involve assaulting them.
Noting the above clauses from my game concept, you simply wouldn't be
able to do so in a town or other enforced/protected area. Since NPCs who
are 'on your side' are available (as well as those that are neutral and
hostile), you might make preparation by hiring a couple of bodyguards,
going on the offensive, or even hiring an assassin, if you felt affluent
enough.
I should add to the 'crime' definitions that in some lands, in addition
to town guards who police individual cities and villages, the crown might
take an interest in criminals of note, and dispatch his soldiers to
investigate, or to temporarily protect an area which was suffering a
crime spree. It all depends on the ruler, really.
> > 4. It is a crime to assault another person, but not to defend one's self.
> > Can I help defend others? That involves some additional mechanism to
> > ensure that at the time of the crime, others can come along and help to
> > defend a victim from a criminal, but that open season isn't declared on
> > criminals at arbitrary times after the original assault. I want to
> > avoid vigilantism.
This is definitely a problem, though. In the justice system which we had
planned (only on paper; it hasn't been implemented in any way to this
day), the guards (if they were around) would intervene to break up the
fight, and then decide who was guilty of what later on. It might be that
they found no witnesses, and charged all participants with causing
affray, or they might notice that it was an attack, and so forth.
The combat system is/was set up to allow non-lethal fighting, too, making
things such as tavern brawls possible within reason.
> > 5. Player bounty hunters are dangerous. If there is reward in being a
> > player bounty hunter, we're right back to Ultima Online, with players
> > looking to hunting criminals as the way to become rich.
I don't really see the problem with player bounty hunters, as long as any
advantages are weighed out by the difficulty of play/survival. A bounty
hunter to my mind might find themselves with few friends, and only a
couple of followers who are actually loyal. Displeasing the wrong person
could prove a very big mistake.
> > All of these uglies have potential solutions. The question is, is this
> > approach to limiting PvP crimes fundamentally and seriously flawed such
> > that no matter how much time is spent plugging holes, it will always
> > have more holes?
>
>
> John, if you (or anyone) could create a system like the above that I or
> any other reasonably intelligent person couldn't easily 'game', I'll
> worship you as a god.
>
> No one in real life has yet been able to create a legal code that defines
> with any serious level of detail (which is needed for a computer to model
> it) what a crime is. Take obscenity laws for instance. From my days
> studying law, I recall a Supreme Court case back in the 60s on obscenity.
> The court ruled that 'community standards' should have some influence, and
> admitted that while they couldn't define obscenity, 'they know it when
> they see it.' That is the case with a whole, massive range of 'crimes'. If
> the combined wisdom of 2500 years of serious philosophy is not enough to
> enable us to define in detail what a 'crime' is, what makes you think any
> of us can?
While this is true to an extent, I'd like to throw into the pot:
One of the reasons that defining laws in real life is that it is never
trivial (and indeed often impossible) to collect the sort of information
(evidence) which is available to you as a Mud Programmer.
You have the ability to *know* for *sure* who took which actions, in
which order, upon whom, and when. Real courts, and real law officials
have no such luxury.
-- Matt Chatterley
".. You live for the fight, when its all that you've got .."
Jon Bon Jovi; Livin' on a Prayer, as always.
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Michael Tresca
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Milne, Alistair
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ian Macintosh
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Nathan Clemons
- Matching and Maximizing: How players choose between activities John Hopson
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Ananda Dawnsinger
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Crime Ben
- Cooperation vs Competition Ron Moore
- Cooperation vs Competition Jo Dillon
- [Moebius] MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) KevinL
- FW: UO rants John Buehler
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Lovecraft
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Shawn L Johnston
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Matthew Mihaly
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Zak Jarvis
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- Playerkilling Pacifists Matthew Mihaly
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- url for The Hundred Years War Ron Moore
- url for The Hundred Years War Marc Bowden
- [paper] The Sacred and the Virtual: Religion in Multi-User Virtual Reality Jon Lambert
- Avatar rights redux Koster, Raph
- Avatar rights redux Dave Rickey
- Holidays Jeff Freeman
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Brad Wyble
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Norman Short
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Warren Powell
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Fraud (was: UO rants) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fraud (was: UO rants) John Buehler
- Transportation Ron Moore
- Transportation Madrona Tree
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) gmiller@classic-games.com
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) Erik Jarvi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Kristen L. Koster
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Patrick Dughi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Travis Casey
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Alex
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Lazarus
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Marc Bowden