August 2000
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook William Katzell
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- Release of Blood Drops ver 0.1 adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping -- An anecdote Zak Jarvis
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Dmitri Zagidulin
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Greg Underwood
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Nathan Clemons
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Tamzen Cannoy
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Matt Chatterley
- World Event Model adam@treyarch.com
- World Event Model Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Christian Loth
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matt Chatterley
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Sellers, Michael
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot rayzam
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot adam@treyarch.com
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Jon Callas
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Sanvean
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. adam@treyarch.com
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Bruce
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Matthew Mihaly
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Mud Evolution Koster, Raph
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Lord Ashon
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Neddy Seagoon
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Christoph Seifert
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Mud Metrics Justin Rogers
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Josh Rollyson
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Merillat
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Shiovitz
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Scion
- Law of Resource Congestion ens017@mizzou.edu
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Andy
- World Event Model (Christian Loth) Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] Christoph Seifert
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Majesty (was: Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind) Chris Jacobson
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] (long/technical) Christoph Seifert
- Skotos News & Skotos @ Gencon Christopher Allen
- Harry Potter stuff Timothy Dang
- Harry Potter stuff Chris Gray
- Harry Potter stuff Matthew Mihaly
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Brett
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Koster, Raph
- Constraint as a Design Problem Christopher Allen
- an opportunity Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Norman Short
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Schubert, Damion
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Shawn L Johnston
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
On Tue, 22 Aug 2000, John Buehler wrote:
> > Matthew Mihaly
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2000 1:29 AM
>
> In the real world we have all the processes and checks and balances of the
> real world - proof by obvious. In a virtual world we don't have the same
> checks and balances. Most obviously there is the fact that the player is
> not the character. The moral judgement of a character is pretty weak given
> that its decisions are made by a player who is 'outside the law'. This is
> why murdering thieves are so rampant in worlds that permit such an
> individual to be successful or thrive.
It's that combined with the fact that most games don't have any serious
permanent consequences that can damage the investment of time and/or money
that someone has put into his or her character.
> Because we lack the normal checks and balances of the real world, I believe
> that a strong justice system is needed. Criminal acts MUST NOT be permitted
> to go unchecked. In a virtual world, the worst crimes are those that annoy
> players and make them go away. These are the ones that must be kept in
> check first. And that is the basis of the moral system. But what actions
> annoy players? Hmmm. Where to get a self-consistent and relatively complete
> set of rules on how to get a large population of people to get along most
> successfully? How about Christianity? How about Buddhism? How about Islam?
> Very smart people have been refining the rules of life for countless
> generations, and those smart people frequently converge and agree that
> certain rules of life are natural and important to follow.
Why MUST NOT criminal acts go unchecked? I fail to see the reasoning for
this. I would alter your statement that the worst crimes are those that
annoy players and make them go away to read something like, "The worst
crimes are those that cause players to go away without causing a
corresponding increase in interest from other players."
Crimes are a good thing in the proper proportions. They generate strong
feelings among the player base, which is also a good thing for the sort of
game I am interested in running (ie I have no interest in designing to
limit how much time people want to stay in the world) and they are
interesting. The absence of some overbearing near-omnipotent justice
system can cause a game to feel more serious than one in which the players
are coddled and guaranteed a nearly hassle-free existence.
There is also not, in my opinion, any way to deal with the following sort
of situation. Bob the Newbie deliberately and intentionally insults Lord
Studly the Powerful. Lord Studly the Powerful, rightly, decides to put the
hurt on the newbie for it. This happens frequently and is, in my opinion,
completely justified (I certainly wouldn't punish one of my players for
it.) There's no way for the game itself to know that Lord Studly was
justified and to convene a player run jury every time someone gets killed
would be a laughable waste of time in Achaea, for instance, as it is a
frequent occurence.
And in terms of using religion as a model for how to keep people from
killing each other...sheesh. The crusades, the inquisition, the
homophobia, the institutional racism, the jihads, etc etc. Not my idea of
a good model.
> Which rules of morality will you choose for your virtual world? When you
> start at the basics and decide what behaviors you don't want in your world,
> you'll find yourself heading in one direction. I'm convinced that I know
> what it is, but because many here believe in subjective morality, my
> stating my belief doesn't convince anyone of anything.
Well, I'd be open to hearing how you would solve the situation with Bob
the Newbie and Lord Studly the Powerful, given that in Achaea, insulting
someone is a good reason to die. When newbies complain to me about crap
like freedom of speech, I just point out that I expect people in Achaea to
be responsible for their own behavior, and that everything you do has
consequences, so if you don't feel you can deal with the consequences,
don't do the deed. There's no paternalistic all-powerful government police
force to go hide behind after you've intentionally pissed off someone
else.
> If you're going to have a social fabric, it has to be coherent. People
> have been working on coherent social fabrics (moral systems) for a long
> time. Do you really think that you're going to do better after a few
> days, months or years of careful consideration?
Yes, I do. I'm quite certain of the fact that I have a better
understanding of community in the virtual world than every major religious
scholar in history. The same goes for most of this list. Anyway, I won't
be so petty as to bar people with testicular cancer from paradise.
--matt
"He that is wounded in the testicles, or have his penis cut off, shall not
enter into the congregation of the Lord." Deuteronomy 23:1 - UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Vincent Archer
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants Ian Macintosh
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants Jeff Freeman
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Richard A. Bartle
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Zak Jarvis
- Object Representations? KevinL
- Object Representations? Lazarus
- Object Representations? Patrick Dughi
- Object Representations? Phillip Lenhardt
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Mordengaard
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Re:[gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) Christoph Seifert
- UO Virtues Schubert, Damion
- UO Virtues John Buehler
- Object Representations? Robert Zubek
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Joe Andrieu
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Bruce
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] John Buehler
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matthew Mihaly
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Michael Tresca
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Milne, Alistair
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ian Macintosh
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Nathan Clemons
- Matching and Maximizing: How players choose between activities John Hopson
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Ananda Dawnsinger
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Crime Ben
- Cooperation vs Competition Ron Moore
- Cooperation vs Competition Jo Dillon
- [Moebius] MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) KevinL
- FW: UO rants John Buehler
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Lovecraft
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Shawn L Johnston
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Matthew Mihaly
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Zak Jarvis
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- Playerkilling Pacifists Matthew Mihaly
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- url for The Hundred Years War Ron Moore
- url for The Hundred Years War Marc Bowden
- [paper] The Sacred and the Virtual: Religion in Multi-User Virtual Reality Jon Lambert
- Avatar rights redux Koster, Raph
- Avatar rights redux Dave Rickey
- Holidays Jeff Freeman
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Brad Wyble
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Norman Short
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Warren Powell
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Fraud (was: UO rants) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fraud (was: UO rants) John Buehler
- Transportation Ron Moore
- Transportation Madrona Tree
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) gmiller@classic-games.com
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) Erik Jarvi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Kristen L. Koster
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Patrick Dughi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Travis Casey
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Alex
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Lazarus
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Marc Bowden