August 2000
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook William Katzell
- Pfile Wiping: was The Player Wimping Guidebook Koster, Raph
- Release of Blood Drops ver 0.1 adam@treyarch.com
- MUD Wimping -- An anecdote Zak Jarvis
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Dmitri Zagidulin
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Greg Underwood
- Responses to the Mudwimping article Nathan Clemons
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Tamzen Cannoy
- wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Matt Chatterley
- World Event Model adam@treyarch.com
- World Event Model Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model Josh Rollyson
- World Event Model Christian Loth
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Brian 'Psychochild' Green
Patrick Dughi wrote:
> > Peter: 'Ugh, how can you code if you don't know what's fun?'
>
> I have to raise a complaint against this mindset, as I've
> encountered it many times in the past and found it to be poorly concieved.
Oooh, I think I'll do likewise with your points.
> You do not have to play a game in order to know what would be good or bad
> for your game, for in truth this is not that difficult of a thing.
If it's not that difficult, why do so many players think that admins
screw it up on a regular basis? Heck, why do so many admins they they
screw it up on such a regular basis? (Myself included!)
The ideal situation would be to play your game exhaustively. Play every
race/class combination in every area using every possible skill.
Obviously, unless your MUD is extremely limited (or, you have given up
the need to sleep and are independently wealthy), then this is
impossible. So, most people settle for playing a subset of the game and
judging it from there.
Feedback has the evil of being filtered. No matter how honest someone
is, they're always holding something back. Perhaps they don't want to
hurt your feelings, or perhaps they DO want to hurt your feelings, or
perhaps it just takes longer to explain the whole playing experience
that you have the time. So, you have to settle for listening to a
subset of the feedback out there.
There's also the option of winging it. Don't play the game and don't
bother with feedback. Just do what you think is right. I'll leave
investigation into this method for others.
> This is also where the problem lies. As a player, your
> preconcieved notions take on a subtle pro-player cast, often at the
> expense of the entire mud.
I think the problem here is that you haven't defined what a "good MUD"
is. I like to think of a good MUD that's like a good paper RPG; it
provides entertainment for the players. It's not so hard as to be
frustrating, but not so easy as to be unchallenging. Given this
definition, a "pro-player" attitude is quite helpful, I think.
> That is to say, you loose your objectivity
> which allowed you to generate a well oiled interconnecting series of
> systems (combat, exploration, socializing, etc). It's replaced with less
> of a game-orientation, and more of a personal, individual orientation.
Again, depends on what you want from your MUD. If you're looking for a
perfect world simulation, then perhaps taking a sympathetic view to
players is harmful. They should live or die upon what the world
simulation says. If you're looking to capture the challenge and fun of
a paper RPG session (without the Mountain Dew and Chee-tos), then being
biased toward the players could provide a more fun environment.
> Let me give you an example:
[Example of an admin noir going unchecked snipped]
I think this is a perfect example of an admin focusing on only a subset
of the game, the subset he happens to have played and was interested
in. He made the game for fun for that subset, at the expense of other
groups.
Yet, I argue that this could just as easily happened if the admin had
not played the game. You said he preferred the gothic frame of mind, so
I imagine many of these changes would have happened if it benefited his
preferred character or not. Even from your own example, the admin
didn't lose objectivity because he was also a player; he never had the
objectivity in the first place.
I question if objectivity is all that vital, though. Like I said, I
like MUDs that are like paper RPG sessions. I want the admins to do
their job and make the game fun. I want to be heroic and take chances.
I want the risk of failure, but I don't want failure to be a constant
state. In general, "objective" admins can't create this type of game.
> Thoughout this all, the constant claim from the implementor was
> simple; "You don't play so you wouldn't know." My claim was just as
> simple; "You don't have to play to write code."
To split hairs, I think that you don't have to play in order to write
code. I can write a elegant code and not play. But, I think the real
question here is "Do you have to play in order to design a fun game?"
> This cycle is not assured though - many admin/etc start out with a
> very objective mindset. Over time though, their emotional investment
> tends to do it's work. The admin's players soon become more important
> than the game viability.
Ah, but emotional investment can happen over more than just one's
characters. Perhaps you can become invested in one's creation, or
friends' characters. Are you really advocating that MUD admins should
be unfeeling, friendless people? Er, wait, that would describe most of
us already, right? :) :)
Seriously, your personal biases will always figure into design of the
game. The best thing to do is to realize this, and either work with
someone that compensates for your "weaknesses", or do evaluations to
make sure that your bias isn't altering the game in negative ways (tough
to do for most of us mere mortals.)
> Unlike a commercial game, feedback
> response can be near-instant, heading most errors off before they affect
> playability.
Most commercial MUDs worth a damn have beta periods where they ask for
feedback. Whether they have the time to consider all feedback is
another issue.
> Having played RPG's for
> at least 10 years before I even heard of a mud, and then mudded like mad
> for several years afterwards, I feel I have acquired the basics, and so
> too have many others. Tempering this knowledge with the constant feedback
> a mud generates should be enough.
There's the question of the current "state of the art", and knowing what
other people did, either to emulate their success, or avoid the pitfalls
that caused their ruin. Someone who had played a lot of Chainmail and
played some MUD1 isn't exactly what I'd call a prime MUD developer
candidate; that doesn't mean he or she can't learn, though. Playing
games (both others, and your own) gives you this edge, the ability to
sort out what works and doesn't work from other people's efforts,
especially if you have multiple developers on your own game.
Some points to ponder on the other side of things.
--
"And I now wait / to shake the hand of fate...." -"Defender", Manowar
Brian Green, brian@psychochild.org aka Psychochild
|\ _,,,---,,_ *=* Morpheus, my kitten, says "Hi!" *=*
ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_
|,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' "Ritalin Cures Next Picasso"
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) -The_Onion_, August 4th, 1999 - Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Patrick Dughi
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matt Chatterley
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Peter
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Sellers, Michael
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot rayzam
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot adam@treyarch.com
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Matthew Mihaly
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind spot Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Jon Callas
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Sanvean
- Pfile Wiping, etc. rayzam
- Pfile Wiping, etc. adam@treyarch.com
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Bruce
- linked worlds (was: On Lockless Threading and X/Open XA) Matthew Mihaly
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Mud Evolution Koster, Raph
- Mud Evolution rayzam
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Lord Ashon
- Unique Items (was MUD Wimping) Neddy Seagoon
- Pfile Wiping, etc. Christoph Seifert
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Mud Metrics Justin Rogers
- Mud Metrics rayzam
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Josh Rollyson
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Merillat
- Law of Resource Congestion Dan Shiovitz
- Law of Resource Congestion Christian Loth
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Scion
- Law of Resource Congestion ens017@mizzou.edu
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Matthew Mihaly
- Law of Resource Congestion Patrick Dughi
- Law of Resource Congestion Nathan F. Yospe
- Law of Resource Congestion Andy
- World Event Model (Christian Loth) Christoph Seifert
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] Christoph Seifert
- Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind Hess, Ian W {Ian}
- Majesty (was: Player-admins, was wimping/wiping and the big blind) Chris Jacobson
- World Event Model [Josh Rollyson] (long/technical) Christoph Seifert
- Skotos News & Skotos @ Gencon Christopher Allen
- Harry Potter stuff Timothy Dang
- Harry Potter stuff Chris Gray
- Harry Potter stuff Matthew Mihaly
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Brett
- Child animations in MUDs (UO) Koster, Raph
- Constraint as a Design Problem Christopher Allen
- an opportunity Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Norman Short
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Schubert, Damion
- UO rants Wes Connell
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Shawn L Johnston
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Vincent Archer
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants Ian Macintosh
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Matthew Mihaly
- UO rants Tess Lowe
- UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- UO rants Jeff Freeman
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Dan Merillat
- UO rants John Buehler
- UO rants Chris Lloyd
- UO rants Richard A. Bartle
- UO rants Koster, Raph
- UO rants Zak Jarvis
- Object Representations? KevinL
- Object Representations? Lazarus
- Object Representations? Patrick Dughi
- Object Representations? Phillip Lenhardt
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Mordengaard
- Reality vs Fantasy (was Law of Resource Congestion) Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- [gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Re:[gods] Player Representatives? (fwd) Christoph Seifert
- UO Virtues Schubert, Damion
- UO Virtues John Buehler
- Object Representations? Robert Zubek
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Joe Andrieu
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Bruce
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] John Buehler
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matthew Mihaly
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Matt Chatterley
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Michael Tresca
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Dan Merillat
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ben
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Milne, Alistair
- Reputation & Trust Circles [was UO rants] Ian Macintosh
- MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) Nathan Clemons
- Matching and Maximizing: How players choose between activities John Hopson
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Ananda Dawnsinger
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matt Chatterley
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Matthew Mihaly
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Zak Jarvis
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Vincent Archer
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- PK vs. PvP (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Crime Ben
- Cooperation vs Competition Ron Moore
- Cooperation vs Competition Jo Dillon
- [Moebius] MXP/Extending MUD Technologies (Was Object Representations?) KevinL
- FW: UO rants John Buehler
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Lovecraft
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Shawn L Johnston
- Reincarnation instead of Resurrection Matthew Mihaly
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Zak Jarvis
- PvP solutions WAS: UO rants Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- Playerkilling Pacifists Matthew Mihaly
- Playerkilling Pacifists Michael Tresca
- url for The Hundred Years War Ron Moore
- url for The Hundred Years War Marc Bowden
- [paper] The Sacred and the Virtual: Religion in Multi-User Virtual Reality Jon Lambert
- Avatar rights redux Koster, Raph
- Avatar rights redux Dave Rickey
- Holidays Jeff Freeman
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Brad Wyble
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Norman Short
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Chris Lloyd
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Patrick Dughi
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Dan Merillat
- Transportation (was: UO rants) Warren Powell
- Transportation (was: UO rants) KevinL
- Fraud (was: UO rants) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fraud (was: UO rants) John Buehler
- Transportation Ron Moore
- Transportation Madrona Tree
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) gmiller@classic-games.com
- time delays on PK (was UO rants) Erik Jarvi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Kristen L. Koster
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Patrick Dughi
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Travis Casey
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Alex
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Lazarus
- Copyright Question for the Hobbyists Marc Bowden