November 2000
- Walking Philip Loguinov, Draymoor
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #231 - 4 msgs Dr. Cat
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #231 - 4 msgs J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev digest, Vol 1 #231 - 4 msgs Koster, Raph
- Atomic functions Felix A. Croes
- Atomic functions Ben
- Atomic functions Christopher Allen
- Atomic functions Ben
- Atomic functions Felix A. Croes
- Atomic functions KevinL
- Atomic functions Felix A. Croes
- Atomic functions KevinL
- Atomic functions KevinL
- Mud Dev FAQ part II Marian Griffith
- Walking Robert Zubek
- Opinions (even harsh) on Castle Marrach by Skotos? Christopher Allen
- Articles & Columns at Skotos Christopher Allen
- skotos David Zimet
- skotos Christopher Allen
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Koster, Raph
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Marian Griffith
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" birgit.schulte@philips.com
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Norman Short
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Jeff Freeman
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" gmiller@classic-games.com
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Lars Duening
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Lars Duening
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Lars Duening
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Vincent Archer
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Paul Schwanz - Enterprise Services
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Vincent Archer
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Peter
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Vincent Archer
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" KevinL
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" KevinL
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Xuri
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" KevinL
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Rhys
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Justin Rogers
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Ted Milker
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Zak Jarvis
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Patrick Dughi
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Madrona Tree
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Madrona Tree
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Michael Tresca
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Jeff Freeman
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Jon Lambert
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" |Eric|
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Miroslav Silovic
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Corey Crawford
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" ghovs@ghovs.moo.ca
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Corey Crawford
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Marian Griffith
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Richard Tew
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Chris Gray
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Richard Tew
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" msew
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" the_logos@www.achaea.com
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" geoffrey@yorku.ca
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" John Buehler
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" the_logos@www.achaea.com
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Geoffrey@yorku.ca
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Vincent Archer
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Jason Belhumeur
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Val Trullinger
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Lee Sheldon
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Robert Zubek
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Eric Rhea
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Wells, Thomas
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Travis Casey
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Richard Tew
- "An essay on d00dism and the MMORPG" Koster, Raph
- "Virtual" What? Dave Rickey
- Object Models Ben
- Object Models J C Lawrence
- Object Models Dmitri Zagidulin
- Object Models KevinL
- Object Models Tony Wooster
- Object Models david.l.smith@home.com
- Object Models KevinL
- Object Models Gavin Doughtie
- Object Models John Robert Arras
- Object Models KevinL
- Object Models Bruce
- Object Models Ben Chambers
- Object Models Bruce
- Object Models KevinL
- Object Models Gavin Doughtie
- Object Models KevinL
- Object Models Travis Casey
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Travis Casey
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Chris Gray
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Chris Gray
- Object Models olag@ifi.uio.no
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models Joe Andrieu
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models KevinL
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models Bruce
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Bruce
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Phillip Lenhardt
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models olag@ifi.uio.no
- Object Models Travis Casey
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models msew
- Object Models Russ Lewis
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Phillip Lenhardt
- Object Models Travis Nixon
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models msew
- Object Models Andy
- Object Models Christopher Allen
- Object Models Chris Gray
- Object Models Travis Casey
- Object Models Marc Bowden
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Miroslav Silovic
- Object Models John Buehler
- Object Models Bruce
- Object Models John Buehler
- ADMIN: Lost posts J C Lawrence
- Multiple Inheritance (was: Object Models) Bruce
- Fanfic (Or: Why we can't all get along) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Fanfic (Or: Why we can't all get along) John Buehler
- Participatory Content (was Opinions (even harsh) on Castle Marrach by Skotos?) Christopher Allen
- Object Models (OO 101) Gavin Doughtie
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) John W Pierce
- Consistent Characters (Was Remote client connection) Marian Griffith
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) Mordengaard
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) Marian Griffith
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) KevinL
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) Joe Andrieu
- (no subject) Bruce
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) KevinL
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) KevinL
- (no subject) Dan Merillat
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- facist marketers / content controllers msew
- facist marketers / content controllers Dave Rickey
- And the lines blur between rl and games!!! msew
- "gossip" Josh Rollyson {dracus}
- Official announce of nevrax.org www site Vincent Archer
- Intersection of Fanfic & Participatory Content Christopher Allen
- A list of Content Creation Eric Rhea
- Refactoring (was Object Models) Gavin Doughtie
- PDA-esque devices used in gaming |Eric|
- Weather and Multiple Planets Greg Mitchell
- Weather and Multiple Planets rayzam
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Lee Sheldon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) rayzam
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matthew Mihaly
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) McQuaid, Brad
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) rayzam
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matthew Mihaly
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Davian
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Dave Rickey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matthew Mihaly
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Dave Rickey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Lee Sheldon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Lee Sheldon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) McQuaid, Brad
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Lee Sheldon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Madrona Tree
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Lee Sheldon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) msew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Phillip Lenhardt
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Justin Hooper
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Dave Rickey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J C Lawrence
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001 13:24:18 -0800
John Buehler <johnbue@msn.com> wrote:
> Justin Hooper writes:
> I may be slanting the systems towards exploration, but I'm
> assuredly getting my teeth kicked in here by those who both
> dislike my approach and wouldn't want to play my game anyway.
Not really. There are a few hard won lessons in MUDs surrounding
the grief player phenomena which many of us have battered our heads
against for long enough ,and in enough forms and forums (Usenet,
mailing lists, MUDs, bars, work, etc), that we've come to a pretty
basic set of assumptions:
1) Where there are people, there are grief players. No
exceptions.
2)rief players don't need support from your service or
environment to be attracted by your service. They just need
targets. They don't need to be entertained or even interested in
your service or its products. They simply need other people there
who:
a) Can be upset
or,
b) Will react to them being upset
or both.
3) You can't get rid of grief players. No exceptions. It is
arguably impossible at a systemic level and in practice the best
you can do is to attempt to manage the problem.
4) The preferred target of grief players are the admins.
5) The favoured game of grief players is gaming the admins.
These things are pretty close to being considered incontrovertable
and absolute laws. There certainly is a lot of history, encluding
this list, to support them.
While this may be in error, the impression I get is that you
question the above observation (which is fair), and present that
disbelief solely on the basis of, "I think I can manage them by
XXX," which runs directly counter to our observations, and thus
gets, umm, aggressively questioned.
Little Billy popping up and stating that he thinks the "laws of
gravity" don't really apply, and that if he just did enough jumping,
or arm flapping, or something, he'd be able to fly without effort
and do loop-the-loops in the sky by properly puckering his lips
might get a somewhat similar reaction, especially from those who
rather liked Billy and cared about his success and possible
failures.
Yeah, we're a hard bitten aggreesive lot that tend to have strong
beliefs and stick to them. Its a common trait of war survivors.
> Yup. That was an early realization for me. Sex and violence are
> the way American society produces its popular entertainment
> because it's easy. The human mind reacts strongly to both, so it
> draws people to it.
Human Emotion & Reaction -- there are few things more predictably
attractive to people's attention. Go look at your average Hollywood
movie lineup, or your bookshelf of fiction, of your TV schedule, and
discard everything that is founded on people being upset with each
other, and see how much you have left. Now watch a news program, or
read a newspaper and do the same thing.
Not a lot left.
> And I think that suspense is a popular entertainment style, but is
> it something for a casual player?
Attracting and maintaining the casual gamer en mass in a social
environment is a most glorious goal.
> I believe that one reason that casual players don't play these
> games is because they're so incredibly hardcore. Hmmm. That's a
> silly statement.
There are conflicting requirements here:
I want to create strong and significant emotional reactions with
my players.
I don't want my players to have to make any significant investment
in my game, at any level.
Strong emotional reactions largely stem from the player considering
that something is important (for whatever reason). If it is not
needed for the player to make any investments (and thus create value
which is thus important), then you have to leverage generic shared
values which you can (safely?) assume the players already have
before they ever approach your service.
Seeing as every other media company on the planet has the same goals
and targets, and that repeated tittilation of such buttons rapidly
desensitises and devalues them, this is a challenge without
resorting to pornography.
> Next, I have to come up with an argument that will convince people
> that grief players are not a necessary outcome of running an
> online community.
<bated breath>
I would love to see such an argument successfully made.
> A note to JC: the reason that the list appeared to be drifting
> into homogenaeity is that those who disagree with the
> commonly-held views in this list are generally 'argued into the
> ground'.
<nod>
This is a side effect of peerages, assumed orthodoxies, etc. Its a
tough thing to kick without abstracting the list into, "Well,
everything comes down to 'It depends on your circumstances,' and
thus no decisions ever being made," or balkanising the list into
armed encampments who violently defend their religions without ever
daring to open their eyes.
I don't know that there are any real long term solutions outside of
periodic gross revolutions.
> With MUD-Dev, you really have to be ready for some serious PvP,
> because agreement is generally not bothered with.
I would note taht this is true of most refereed critical
environments. Of course consrtuctive sugestions for improvement are
welcomed (and are one of the purposes of the Meta list).
>> How does this desire interact with the "uber" model, wherein a
>> quick rise to power of a small clique of players would then go
>> out, collecting all possible maps (or a substantial fraction
>> thereof) in order to try and collect all the treasures? This
>> WILL happen, unless the treasure is so undervalued as to be
>> relatively worthless.
> How do they collect all the maps?
Given a couple bot scripts and a little time, it really doesn't take
much effort. Its been done so often that its now pretty well an
assumable. This extends all the way down to gamers deriving, by
observation, the formulae and curves used for all your in-game
computations, publishing their deductions, and thus deriving the
optimal min-max path, and thus the fastest route to the cheese.
This is not something to be surprised about. The only question
is. "How soon?" not whether.
--
J C Lawrence claw@kanga.nu
---------(*) http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- - Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Ananda Dawnsinger
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Marian Griffith
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Tamzen Cannoy
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Timothy Dang
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) msew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Nathan F.Yospe
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Phillip Lenhardt
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Justin Hooper
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Justin Hooper
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Madrona Tree
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) rayzam
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Klyde Beattie
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Hulbert, Leland
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Madrona Tree
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Madrona Tree
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Justin Hooper
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Willowreed@aol.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Willowreed@aol.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J C Lawrence
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) msew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Dave Rickey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J C Lawrence
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J C Lawrence
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Hulbert, Leland
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jeff Freeman
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J. Coleman
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) msew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Chris Lloyd
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) msew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Chris Lloyd
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Marian Griffith
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) msew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jon Lambert
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Koster, Raph
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Chris Lloyd
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Dan Shiovitz
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Dave Rickey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) shren
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) the_logos@www.achaea.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) twm139@its.to
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Nixon
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Timothy Dang
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Michael Tresca
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Justin Hooper
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Holly Sommer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Marian Griffith
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) msew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Travis Casey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Joe Andrieu
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) S. Patrick Gallaty
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Zak Jarvis
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Vanderbeck
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Matthew Mihaly
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) McQuaid, Brad
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Vincent Archer
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Richard Tew
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Dave Rickey
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) J C Lawrence
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) John Buehler
- Interesting EQ rant (very long quote) Jon Lambert
- Dynamic Timelines Lord Ashon
- Dynamic Timelines |Eric|
- Dynamic Timelines Bruce
- Dynamic Timelines James Thomas
- Dynamic Timelines Travis Casey
- Neopets Matthew Mihaly
- Threads Ben Chambers
- Consistent Characters Jeremy Hovance
- Consistent Characters Travis Casey