November 1999
- Admin: Kanga.Nu has moved again J C Lawrence
- mud history Matthew Mihaly
- Physics Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Language Independence Article. Ben Greear
- Language Independence Article. Chris Turner
- Language Independence Article. Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- Language Independence Article. Cynbe ru Taren
- ADMIN: Archives are back again J C Lawrence
- Hilbert Curves [was: "[DGD] Rooms with Views" and "Physics"] Christopher Allen
- Hilbert Curves [was: "[DGD] Rooms with Views" J C Lawrence
- Re Hilbert Curves Cynbe ru Taren
- Re Hilbert Curves J C Lawrence
- Hilbert Curves [was: "[DGD] Rooms with Views" and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Christopher Allen
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) J C Lawrence
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Miroslav Silovic
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Brandon J. Rickman
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A simple plan for establishing a history. Aaron
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was R e: Hilbert Curves) Lo, Kam
- Server: Momoko J C Lawrence
- META: Successor to FAQ Maintainer Lo, Kam
- ADMIN: Library goof J C Lawrence
- Scripting in java... (was Momoko) Owen
- Majik (Was Hilbert Curves) Owen
- players who "take away from the game" msew
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Holly Sommer
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Holly Sommer
- players who "take away from the game" Balthazaar/BalthMURP
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Holly Sommer
- players who "take away from the game" David Bennett
- players who "take away from the game" Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- players who "take away from the game" Miroslav Silovic
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Koster, Raph
- players who "take away from the game" Koster, Raph
- players who "take away from the game" msew
- players who "take away from the game" Sellers, Michael
- players who "take away from the game" Daniel James
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Greg Miller
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Charles Hughes
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Charles Hughes
- players who "take away from the game" Jon A. Lambert
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" Jon A. Lambert
- players who "take away from the game" Matthew Mihaly
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Marc Bowden
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Charles Hughes
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Charles Hughes
- players who "take away from the game" Adam Wiggins
- players who "take away from the game" Adam Wiggins
- players who "take away from the game" Miroslav Silovic
- players who "take away from the game" Adam Wiggins
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- players who "take away from the game" Adam Wiggins
- players who "take away from the game" Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- players who "take away from the game" Adam Wiggins
- players who "take away from the game" Holly Sommer
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Quzah
- players who "take away from the game" Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
- players who "take away from the game" Quzah
- players who "take away from the game" Ronan Farrell
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Jon A. Lambert
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Miroslav Silovic
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- players who "take away from the game" Koster, Raph
- players who "take away from the game" J C Lawrence
- History of Online Gaming, part III Koster, Raph
- [Lib] ADMIN: Library goof J C Lawrence
- Oh dear (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Costikyan's new report on online gaming Koster, Raph
- Costikyan's new report on online gaming Sellers, Michael
- Costikyan's new report on online gaming Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- META: System Security (was: players who "take away from the game") J C Lawrence
- System Security (was: players who "take away from the game") Eli Stevens {Grey}
- System Security (was: players who "take away from the game") cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- System Security (was: players who "take away from the game") J C Lawrence
- System Security (was: players who "take away from the game") Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- System Security (was: players who "take away from the game") Cynbe ru Taren
- Neverwinter Nights Koster, Raph
- Neverwinter Nights Dundee
- Neverwinter Nights S. Patrick Gallaty
- Neverwinter Nights Trent Oster
- Neverwinter Nights Lee Sheldon
- Neverwinter Nights Sean Kelly
- Neverwinter Nights Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Neverwinter Nights Nathan F. Yospe
- Neverwinter Nights John Buehler
- Neverwinter Nights Travis Casey
- Neverwinter Nights Adam Martin
- associate producer/designer openings, and others: Maxis/EA Sellers, Michael
- MySQL as a MUD. Quzah
- MySQL as a MUD. Holly Sommer
- MySQL as a MUD. J C Lawrence
- MySQL as a MUD. J C Lawrence
- MySQL as a MUD. Ian Macintosh
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Sellers, Michael
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Holly Sommer
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Charles Hughes
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Quzah
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game" ) Sellers, Michael
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game" ) Matthew Mihaly
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Mik Clarke
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Ilya, Game Commandos
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Holly Sommer
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Balthazaar/BalthMURP
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Holly Sommer
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Balthazaar/BalthMURP
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Holly Sommer
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Adam Wiggins
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Jon A. Lambert
- ColdC/ColdCore Zelnar
- ColdC/ColdCore Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Miroslav Silovic
- Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- bugs (was players who "take away from the game" ) Charles Hughes
- GEL -- A New Approach to Online Interactive 3D claw@kanga.nu
- New FAQ moderator Marian Griffith
- New FAQ moderator J C Lawrence
- Mud Dev FAQ Marian Griffith
- Random numbers (was: Physics) Eli Stevens {Grey}
- code base inquiry Ilya, Game Commandos
- code base inquiry Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
- code base inquiry Andru Luvisi
- code base inquiry Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- code base inquiry Travis S. Casey
- code base inquiry Ben Greear
- code base inquiry cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- code base inquiry Mik Clarke
- code base inquiry Adam Wiggins
- code base inquiry Matthew D. Fuller
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry Ben Greear
- code base inquiry Greg Miller
- code base inquiry J C Lawrence
- code base inquiry Mik Clarke
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry Robert Green
- code base inquiry Travis S. Casey
- code base inquiry Andru Luvisi
- code base inquiry Travis Casey
- code base inquiry Matthew D. Fuller
- code base inquiry Travis Casey
- code base inquiry Ben Greear
- code base inquiry Travis S. Casey
- code base inquiry Greg Miller
- code base inquiry Ben Greear
- code base inquiry Travis S. Casey
- code base inquiry Ilya, Game Commandos
- code base inquiry Mik Clarke
- code base inquiry Adam Wiggins
- code base inquiry J C Lawrence
- code base inquiry Lars Duening
- code base inquiry Travis S. Casey
- code base inquiry Ilya, Game Commandos
- code base inquiry cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- code base inquiry Travis Casey
- code base inquiry Lars Duening
- code base inquiry Colin Coghill
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry Richard Woolcock
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry Richard Woolcock
- code base inquiry Ben Greear
- code base inquiry Richard Woolcock
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry Richard Woolcock
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry Richard Woolcock
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry MichelleThompson
- code base inquiry Dundee
- code base inquiry Kristen L. Koster
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
- code base inquiry J C Lawrence
On Thu, 17 Feb 2000 12:53:07 -0500
Kristen L Koster <koster@eden.com> wrote:
> Matt, you...
Ahem.
> ... WAY too many broad generalizations for me to be able to follow
> this thread any longer.
Buttons are being pushed, people are reacting. Let's take a timeout
for a second and just have a dispassionate look at this before we
spend yet more time demonstrating the other people's points for
them:
Commercial MUDs versus "free" MUDs (at least until the days of
paid-for-by-advertising MUDs)
Unarguably both are physically capable of being equally "excellent"
for whatever your definition of "excellent" is. Further, I doubt
any of us would argue that there are "free" MUDs out there that are
of at least equal "quality" to the commercial offerings, taken as a
whole and not in specific aspects (we all have flaws) for whatever
your quality metrics are. However, (and I consider this a fairly
safe broad and sweeping generality) each has a different concept of
their target market, and their commitment to serving that market.
For commercial games target market is often a question of player
base size (and thus revenue maximisation). Other related and common
metrics are market share and demographic penetration (which can be
far more important than player base size when dealing with
advertising **). The key point however is that they have a clearly
defined purpose and a known, well defined, and measurable set of
metrics to judge their success in that pursuit and to keep them on
the "right path" should they waffle from the base company purpose at
some point and start smelling the daisies instead. Largely, they
have a clearly defined goal, a purpose, a set of policies that serve
and support that purpose, and are engaged in the business of
achieving that goal.
For hobbyest games the definition of "target market" tends to be
soft. Often it is, "people who like the things I do" without any
clear definition of "what I want" or any awareness of how that
varies over time (or why), and even less sense of long term
dedication to that theme. Further, in the hobbyest game, it is very
easy, and one is actively encouraged to do this, to get egos,
personalities, and other irrelevancies (to the useful purposes of
running a game) involved. That fact doesn't make it any easier.
Unfortunately often you up with a set of people with some of
half-understood ideas of what they are trying to do, all assuming
that they all agree with the other people in the team (because after
all its "cool") without ever checking if they do actually agree at
anything more than the "really cool MUD" level, who are striving to
achieve some goal that they've never formulated and likely wouldn't
know if they actually hit it.
You have to _name_, _want_, and _get_ your product.
Achieving any purpose is a lot tougher if you don't have a clear
statement and understanding of what that purpose is. Commercial
establishments have a slight advantage here in that financial
survival tends to help maintain focus, but that's not to say that
hobbyest efforts can't have an equally if not better defined
purpose, focus, etc etc etc. They just have different and often
more personal distractions.
How does all this plug into things like customer service, help
files, tech support, and such? On the one side purpose achievement
defines what level of assistance you need to provide to your terget
market and how important it is. Its a fairly simple equation all
told and on the commercial side there are money and resources on
hand (to some level) for making sure it is done. On the hobbyest
side however, its easy to overlook these "boring" things, and far
too easy (and attractive) to just dump them and tacitly reclassify
the target market as "people who can understand this stuff without
my help and none o' them luser idiots either".
Just how many OpenSource applications out there have decent
user-level documentation that a non-IT person has a chance of
understanding?
Here endeth the philosophy lesson for today.
** I know of a highly profitable jazz (***) radio station, now sadly
closed, that had incredible key affluent demographic penetration.
Their total listening audience was not large, but it dominated
certain demographics. On that basis they were able to charge, and
easily get, fees for advertising that were fifteen or more times
that of local pop stations that had audiences of, literally, a
hundred times their size (but was mostly listed to by less affluent
teeangers/young couples, etc).
*** Was bought by a conglomerate to extend their chain, changed to a
pop station as "we don't understand jazz but we know pop", proceeded
to lose money hand over fist and shut down.
--
J C Lawrence Home: claw@kanga.nu
----------(*) Other: coder@kanga.nu
--=| A man is as sane as he is dangerous to his environment |=-- - code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
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- code base inquiry Sellers, Michael
- code base inquiry Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- code base inquiry David Bennett
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- code base inquiry MichelleThompson
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- code base inquiry J C Lawrence
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- code base inquiry Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- code base inquiry Matthew Mihaly
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- code base inquiry Colin Coghill
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- code base inquiry Greg Miller
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- code base inquiry Mik Clarke
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- code base inquiry Andru Luvisi
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- code base inquiry Greg Miller
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- MudWords.com J C Lawrence
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- Languages for MUD drivers Laurent Bossavit
- Languages for MUD drivers Joey Hess
- Languages for MUD drivers bruce@puremagic.com
- Languages for MUD drivers Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages for MUD drivers Laurent Bossavit
- Languages for MUD drivers Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers Ian Macintosh
- Languages for MUD drivers Greg Miller
- Languages for MUD drivers Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers Jo Dillon
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers Greg Miller
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers Laurent Bossavit
- Languages for MUD drivers Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers Laurent Bossavit
- Languages for MUD drivers Ian Macintosh
- Languages for MUD drivers Cynbe ru Taren
- Languages for MUD drivers Greg Miller
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers Ian Macintosh
- Mud hosting services Dundee
- Mud hosting services AR Schleicher
- Mud hosting services Dundee
- Mud hosting services AR Schleicher
- Mud hosting services Greg Miller
- Mud hosting services Dundee
- Mud hosting services Mik Clarke
- Mud hosting services J C Lawrence
- Mud hosting services Mik Clarke
- Mud hosting services Ian Macintosh
- Mud hosting services J C Lawrence
- Mud hosting services gunderwood@donet.com
- Matrix Laurent Bossavit
- Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Locke
- Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Koster, Raph
- Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Greg Miller
- Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku rnicoll@respc-jrn.res.st-andrews.ac.uk
- Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Wendy Winkler
- Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Admins as Mortals Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
- Admins as Mortals Holly Sommer
- Admins as Mortals Travis S. Casey
- Admins as Mortals Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
- Admins as Mortals Sellers, Michael
- Admins as Mortals PartyG2816@aol.com
- Admins as Mortals Mik Clarke
- Admins as Mortals Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
- Admins as Mortals J C Lawrence
- Admins as Mortals Travis S. Casey
- Admins as Mortals Koster, Raph
- Random numbers (was: Physics) J C Lawrence
- Urban Desire claw@kanga.nu
- Depth of realism Joe Kingry
- Depth of realism Ilya, Game Commandos
- Depth of realism Koster, Raph
- Depth of realism Mik Clarke
- Depth of realism Matthew Mihaly
- Depth of realism Marian Griffith
- Depth of realism Travis S. Casey
- Depth of realism Jo Dillon
- Depth of realism Marian Griffith
- Depth of realism Matthew Mihaly
- Depth of realism Wendy Winkler
- Depth of realism Travis Casey
- Depth of realism J C Lawrence
- Depth of realism J C Lawrence
- Depth of realism J C Lawrence
- Depth of realism Travis S. Casey
- Depth of realism J C Lawrence
- Depth of realism Jon A. Lambert
- Depth of realism Marian Griffith
- Depth of realism Jeremy Music
- Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) Petri Virkkula
- Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) Matthew Mihaly
- Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) Marc Bowden
- Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) David Bennett
- Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) Adam Wiggins
- Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) David Bennett
- Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) Adam Wiggins
- Admin: Attribute your quotes J C Lawrence
- Muq V -1.46.0 release (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Languages for MUD drivers Petri Virkkula
- MUD client resources (was: Mud hosting services) Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- MUD client resources (was: Mud hosting services) Greg Miller
- Distribution schemes (was Languages for MUD drivers) Ian Macintosh
- Distribution schemes (was Languages for MUD drivers) Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- Distribution schemes (was Languages for MUD drivers) Mik Clarke
- Distribution schemes (was Languages for MUD drivers) Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- Distribution schemes (was Languages for MUD dri vers) Koster, Raph
- about MOO Ilya, Game Commandos
- (no subject) Michael Seifert
- (no subject) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (no subject) Mike Sellers
- (no subject) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (no subject) JC Lawrence
- (no subject) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (no subject) JC Lawrence
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- (no subject) Marian Griffith
- (no subject) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- (no subject) Chris Gray
- (no subject) Jon A. Lambert
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- (no subject) Alex Oren
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- (no subject) Jon A. Lambert
- (no subject) Travis Casey
- (no subject) Dan Shiovitz
- (no subject) Travis S. Casey
- (no subject) Marian Griffith
- (no subject) Mik Clarke
- (no subject) J C Lawrence
- (no subject) The Eternal City
- (no subject) Travis Casey
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- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) Joe Andrieu
- (no subject) John Buehler
- (no subject) Bruce
- (no subject) John Buehler
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- (no subject) Travis Nixon
- Player statistics calculation B. Schulte
- Player statistics calculation Marc Bowden
- Player statistics calculation Adam Wiggins
- Admins as Mortals twist Ryan P.
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- Admins as Mortals twist Darren Henderson
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- Admins as Mortals twist Dundee
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- Admins as Mortals twist Marian Griffith
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- Admins as Mortals twist J C Lawrence
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- Distribution schemes (was Languages for MUD drivers) Ian Macintosh
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- Public Domain Client Ian Macintosh
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- MUD-Dev request rejected Greg Miller
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- Re[4]: (no subject) Travis Casey
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- Re[5]: (no subject) Travis Casey
- FAQ for gm-types? Dundee
- FAQ for gm-types? Charles Hughes
- FAQ for gm-types? Mik Clarke
- FAQ for gm-types? Christopher Allen
- FAQ for gm-types? J C Lawrence
- Re[6]: (no subject) Travis Casey
- FW: Re[6]: (no subject) Koster, Raph
- Re[5]: (no subject) Koster, Raph
- Re[5]: (no subject) Travis S. Casey
- Interesting links Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- CODE RELEASE: (client) SMM++ J C Lawrence
- authority and human nature Matthew Mihaly
- authority and human nature Koster, Raph
- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
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- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Scatter
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- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Scatter
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- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Mik Clarke
- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Greg Miller
- Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
- volunteerism on muds (fwd) J C Lawrence
- (fwd) Artificial Language for MUD programmers claw@kanga.nu
- The grass is always greener in the other field claw@kanga.nu
- The grass is always greener in the other field Jon A. Lambert
- The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Dundee
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Greg Miller
- The grass is always greener in the other field Ilya, Game Commandos
- The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
- The grass is always greener in the other field Sellers, Michael
- The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Sellers, Michael
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Travis Casey
- The grass is always greener in the other field Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
- The grass is always greener in the other field Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- The grass is always greener in the other field Cynbe ru Taren
- The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
- The grass is always greener in the other field cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
- The grass is always greener in the other field Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- The grass is always greener in the other field Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
- The grass is always greener in the other field Charles Hughes
- The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
- The grass is always greener in the other field Cynbe ru Taren
- The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
- The grass is always greener in the other field Ilya, Game Commandos
- The grass is always greener in the other field cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
- The grass is always greener in the other field Scatter
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
- The grass is always greener in the other field Raph & Kristen Koster
- The grass is always greener in the other field Timothy Dang
- The grass is always greener in the other field maddog@best.com
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Petri Virkkula
- The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
- The grass is always greener in the other field Ian Macintosh
- The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
- The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Travis Casey
- The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
- The grass is always greener in the other field Raph & Kristen Koster
- The grass is always greener in the other field Joe Andrieu
- Re[4]: (no subject) Travis Casey
- Re[4]: (no subject) claw@kanga.nu
- Re[6]: (no subject) Travis Casey