November 1999

• Admin: Kanga.Nu has moved again J C Lawrence
• mud history Matthew Mihaly
• Physics Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• • Physics Laurel Fan
  • • Physics Sellers, Michael
    • • Physics Laurel Fan
      • • Physics Sellers, Michael
    • Physics Niklas Elmqvist
    • Physics Mik Clarke
  • Physics J C Lawrence
• Language Independence Article. Ben Greear
• • Language Independence Article. Chris Turner
  • Language Independence Article. Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
  • Language Independence Article. Cynbe ru Taren
    On November 3, 1999, Ben Greear wrote:
    >Just to toot my own horn a bit. I wrote an article for imaginary.com on
    >my implementation of Language Independence in ScryMUD. The techniques
    >and code examples should pertain to just about anyone though.
    >
    >You may find it here:
    >http://imaginaryrealities.imaginary.com/volume2/issue10/independance.html
    >
    >I am interested in comments any of you might have...
    
    1)
    
    Running at least the title and URL through a spell-checker
    would produce more professional-looking results. :)
    
    
    
    2)
    
    A consequent of "Anything worth doing is worth doing well."
    is of course "Anything not worth doing well is not worth
    doing at all."
    
    I decided not to spend coding time and effort on this for Muq
    basically for the reasons you touch on: Even if one makes a lookup
    table of all user-visible strings in the server, and correctly handles
    such issues as some languages needing 16-bit encoding (or UTF-8 or
    such) and some languages reading left-to-right and others
    right-to-left (which has implications for correctly embedding strings
    within each other), there is still the intractable issue of a
    continually changing db maintained by many amateur hands, most of them
    likely monolingual Americans, given the realities of today's Internet.
    
    I was further discouraged when the few non-native Anglophones I asked
    about the subject mostly seemed quite unexcited about it: "Anyone
    using the Internet is going to have learned English," seemed to be the
    feeling. (I'd expected something more along the lines of "Finally --
    About time you arrogant monolingual yanks got with the program!!")
    
    
    
    A basic rule of problem-solving is:
    
    Solve the hardest subproblem first.
    
    (Reasons include the fact that you have the most design
    freedom early on, and you want all the design freedom
    you can get for the hardest subproblem.)
    
    So if one is going to tackle this problem at all, I think
    taking on the db issue comes first from a design point
    of view. Any viable solution to the multilingual db
    problem is likely to take the easier server problem in
    stride.
    
    In particular, I think it can be taken as a given that the "many
    amateur hands" mentioned above are -not- going to be setting up and
    maintaining big tables of enum-declared strings.
    
    So any viable solution is going to have to extract strings from
    the db automatically -- which is not all that difficult -- and
    then apply translations on the fly with basically zero direct
    reliable support from the "many amateur hands".
    
    Which suggests to me that -if- one is going to make a serious
    swing at multilingual support, the hack is going to have to
    look pretty much like:
    
    * DB scanner of some sort extracts ascii strings. This could
    be a periodic batch-mode process or a purely opportunistic
    on-the-fly thing.
    
    * A db of all such known strings is automatically maintained,
    updated as new ones are noticed or old ones recycled.
    
    * Hashtables are kept mapping strings from the canonical db
    language (likely English in practice, but maybe not if
    hosted in France or China or such) to other supported languages.
    
    * Presumably (but not necessarily) bilingual volunteer(s) maintain
    each such hashtable, automatically notified when new unknown
    strings show up. To reduce the load on them, likely there should
    be a hack so a string has to stay stably in the db for 2-5 days
    before they are asked to translate, to avoid inundating them
    during debugging.
    
    * System output uses the above hashtables to look up each output
    string encountered.
    
    This approach basically replaces the hand-assigned enum of
    the your scheme with an automatically-assigned hashcode, and
    your array lookup with a hashtable lookup: I think the resulting
    handwork savings would be a major issue in practice, and the
    extra compute time and space used an entirely trivial issue
    in practice.
    
    If you opt for purely on-the-fly extraction of strings in
    this approach, you'll capture server-generated strings along
    with in-db ones without any extra effort whatever. Otherwise,
    you'll likely have to add some sort of simple scan of the
    server proper to that of the db: 'strings myserver' might
    suffice, or you might write a moderately elaborate source
    code parser, or whatever -- a null macro wrapped around
    each string needing translation would be a minimal load
    on server hackers and make automatic extraction of them
    all from the source code a breeze.
    
    
    
    Anyhow -- I'm delighted to see someone looking at this! I think
    one of the great things about the Internet in general and mu*
    in particular is the potential (largely unrealized, alas) for
    cross-cultural communication. Bravo to anyone promoting this!
    
    Cynbe
• ADMIN: Archives are back again J C Lawrence
• Hilbert Curves [was: "[DGD] Rooms with Views" and "Physics"] Christopher Allen
• Hilbert Curves [was: "[DGD] Rooms with Views" J C Lawrence
• Re Hilbert Curves Cynbe ru Taren
• • Re Hilbert Curves J C Lawrence
• Hilbert Curves [was: "[DGD] Rooms with Views" and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• • Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Christopher Allen
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• A simple plan for establishing a history. Aaron
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    • players who "take away from the game" Koster, Raph
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• History of Online Gaming, part III Koster, Raph
• [Lib] ADMIN: Library goof J C Lawrence
• Oh dear (fwd) J C Lawrence
• Costikyan's new report on online gaming Koster, Raph
• • Costikyan's new report on online gaming Sellers, Michael
  • • Costikyan's new report on online gaming Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• META: System Security (was: players who "take away from the game") J C Lawrence
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• Neverwinter Nights Koster, Raph
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• associate producer/designer openings, and others: Maxis/EA Sellers, Michael
• MySQL as a MUD. Quzah
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  • • MySQL as a MUD. J C Lawrence
  • MySQL as a MUD. J C Lawrence
  • MySQL as a MUD. Ian Macintosh
• bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Sellers, Michael
• • bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Holly Sommer
  • • bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Charles Hughes
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  • bugs (was players who "take away from the game") Jon A. Lambert
• ColdC/ColdCore Zelnar
• • ColdC/ColdCore Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
• Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Miroslav Silovic
• • Spatial datastructures and their application (Was Hilbert Curves) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• bugs (was players who "take away from the game" ) Charles Hughes
• GEL -- A New Approach to Online Interactive 3D claw@kanga.nu
• New FAQ moderator Marian Griffith
• • New FAQ moderator J C Lawrence
• Mud Dev FAQ Marian Griffith
• Random numbers (was: Physics) Eli Stevens {Grey}
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• MudWords.com J C Lawrence
• Library news J C Lawrence
• Languages for MUD drivers Laurent Bossavit
• • Languages for MUD drivers Joey Hess
  • Languages for MUD drivers bruce@puremagic.com
  • Languages for MUD drivers Cynbe ru Taren
  • • Languages for MUD drivers Laurent Bossavit
    • • Languages for MUD drivers Cynbe ru Taren
      • Languages for MUD drivers J C Lawrence
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• Mud hosting services Dundee
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        • Mud hosting services Dundee
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    • Mud hosting services gunderwood@donet.com
• Matrix Laurent Bossavit
• Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Locke
• • Sony's EverQuest Admits Using Diku Koster, Raph
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• Admins as Mortals Philip Loguinov -- Draymoor
• • Admins as Mortals Holly Sommer
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• Random numbers (was: Physics) J C Lawrence
• Urban Desire claw@kanga.nu
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  • Depth of realism Koster, Raph
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• Player statistics calculation (Was: code base inquiry) Petri Virkkula
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• about MOO Ilya, Game Commandos
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• • FAQ for gm-types? Charles Hughes
  • • FAQ for gm-types? Mik Clarke
  • FAQ for gm-types? Christopher Allen
  • FAQ for gm-types? J C Lawrence
• Re[6]: (no subject) Travis Casey
• FW: Re[6]: (no subject) Koster, Raph
• Re[5]: (no subject) Koster, Raph
• • Re[5]: (no subject) Travis S. Casey
• Interesting links Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
• CODE RELEASE: (client) SMM++ J C Lawrence
• authority and human nature Matthew Mihaly
• • authority and human nature Koster, Raph
• Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
• • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Mik Clarke
  • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
    • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Sellers, Michael
      • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
        • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Sellers, Michael
          • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
            • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Sellers, Michael
          • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Mik Clarke
          • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
        • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Dan Shiovitz
        • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Joe Andrieu
        • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
        • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Adam Wiggins
          • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Marian Griffith
            • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Travis S. Casey
              • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Eli Stevens {Grey}
              • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Douglas Couch
                • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Dundee
                  • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Chris Turner
                • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) David Bennett
          • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Scatter
          • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
            • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Scatter
              • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
                • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Scatter
            • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Quzah
            • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Scatter
              • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Quzah
                • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Scatter
                • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
              • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Adam Wiggins
              • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Quzah
      • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
      • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Richard Ross
      • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Mik Clarke
      • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
        • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Dundee
          • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
            • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Raph & Kristen Koster
              • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Dundee
          • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Mik Clarke
          • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Holly Sommer
  • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Marian Griffith
  • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Lucas Moten {Krozy}
  • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
    • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Mik Clarke
      • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Matthew Mihaly
        • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) Greg Miller
        • • Fair/Unfair? Scenarios (fwd) J C Lawrence
• volunteerism on muds (fwd) J C Lawrence
• (fwd) Artificial Language for MUD programmers claw@kanga.nu
• The grass is always greener in the other field claw@kanga.nu
• • The grass is always greener in the other field Jon A. Lambert
  • • The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
  • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
  • • The grass is always greener in the other field Dundee
    • • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
      • • The grass is always greener in the other field Greg Miller
        • • The grass is always greener in the other field Ilya, Game Commandos
          • The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
          • • The grass is always greener in the other field Sellers, Michael
            • • The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
              • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
              • • The grass is always greener in the other field Sellers, Michael
                • • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
                • The grass is always greener in the other field Travis Casey
                • • The grass is always greener in the other field Ola Fosheim Grøstad
    • The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
    • • The grass is always greener in the other field Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
      • • The grass is always greener in the other field Cynbe ru Taren
        • • The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
        • The grass is always greener in the other field cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
        • The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
        • The grass is always greener in the other field Ola Fosheim Grøstad
        • • The grass is always greener in the other field Bruce Mitchener, Jr.
      • The grass is always greener in the other field Charles Hughes
      • • The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
        • • The grass is always greener in the other field Cynbe ru Taren
          • • The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
            • • The grass is always greener in the other field Ilya, Game Commandos
              • The grass is always greener in the other field cg@ami-cg.GraySage.Edmonton.AB.CA
              • The grass is always greener in the other field Scatter
          • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
          • • The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
            • • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
              • • The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
                • • The grass is always greener in the other field Quzah
                  • • The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
                    • • The grass is always greener in the other field Quzah
                • The grass is always greener in the other field Raph & Kristen Koster
        • The grass is always greener in the other field Timothy Dang
  • The grass is always greener in the other field maddog@best.com
  • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
  • The grass is always greener in the other field Petri Virkkula
  • • The grass is always greener in the other field Matthew Mihaly
  • The grass is always greener in the other field Ian Macintosh
  • • The grass is always greener in the other field Koster, Raph
    • • The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
    • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
    • • The grass is always greener in the other field Travis Casey
      • • The grass is always greener in the other field Adam Wiggins
        • • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
        • The grass is always greener in the other field J C Lawrence
    • The grass is always greener in the other field Raph & Kristen Koster
  • The grass is always greener in the other field Joe Andrieu
• Re[4]: (no subject) Travis Casey
• • Re[4]: (no subject) claw@kanga.nu
• Re[6]: (no subject) Travis Casey