November 1998
- ADMIN: Unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- ScryMUD [CUSTOM] Code release. Ben Greear
- Designgoals for CoolComponentCore(Was MUD-Dev's...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Designgoals for CoolComponentCore (Was MUD-Dev's...) Niklas Elmqvist
- Designgoals for CoolComponentCore (Was MUD-Dev's...) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DevMUD: CVS Tree is ready. Are your sources? J C Lawrence
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article J C Lawrence
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Jon Leonard
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Adam J. Thornton
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article J C Lawrence
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Chris Gray
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Jon Leonard
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article David Bennett
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Alex Oren
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Chris Gray
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Marc Hernandez
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Chris Gray
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Vadim Tkachenko
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Jon Leonard
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Alex Oren
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Alex Oren
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article Chris Gray
- Designgoals for CoolComponentCore (Was MUD-Dev's...) Chris Gray
- Fallacy Watch and DevMUD Vision (was ... CoolComponentCore) Hal Black
- Fallacy Watch and DevMUD Vision (was ... CoolComponentCore) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fallacy Watch and DevMUD Vision (was ... CoolComponentCore) Jon Leonard
On Tue, Nov 03, 1998 at 12:50:19PM +0100, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> Hal Black wrote:
> > On Sun, Nov 01, 1998 at 01:54:13PM +0100, Ola Fosheim Grøstad wrote:
> > > On the technical decisions "made":
> > >
> > > - DevMUD will have dynamic loadable modules because it is cool (and because
> > > it is used in mainframes, it looks like Java, it is used in Windows as a
> > > replacement for a sucking memory model, because it is used for OS device
> > > drivers, plug'n'play and that makes it a good idea)
> >
> > A nice straw man, but you neglected to mention any of the reasons that people
> > have posted that they want dynamically loaded modules. Please allow me to
> > reiterate.
>
> I didn't list the negative sides either. I basically tried to see the
> underlying reasons for decisions being "made" ad-hoc. (but yeah there was a
> nasty twist to it)
Like any other feature, dynamic loading is subject to a cost/benefit
analysis. The implementation cost is obviously low: I converted my IPC
example to use dynamic loading in a matter of hours. I think we've seen
more effort spent on explaining why it's hard than it took to implement.
There isn't much of an efficiency penalty either. In a more static system,
loads are a one-time event, and fairly fast from a user perspective. The
run-time cost of calling from one module to another is on par with C++
virtual method calls.
We haven't yet seen how much of a burden it is on module definitions.
I expect that it doesn't impose any more overhead than well defined
reusable modules have anyway. We'll see.
Given the costs, I think that "It's cool" might be reason enough. The
fact that there are more substantive benefits makes it clear to me that
it's the right choice. I still want an option to compile without it,
though.
> > > - DevMUD will have a Virtual Machinelanguage because it is cool (everybody
> > > does it)
> >
> > If there's going to be some in-game programming language (which a lot of
> > people seem to think would be a good thing to have), there is going to be
> > something like a virtual machine, even if it's a simple interpreter.
>
> Or a statemachine/graph (abstract syntax three). Another problem is with
> making the virtual machine the portable mechanism (as opposed to selecting
> an existing language syntax), you have to do it right the first time. VM
> efficiency is clearly dependant on language-semantics and hardware... The
> main VM advantage is exchanging objectcode between different hardware
> platforms, not a major issue to my projects. ( I don't know enough about
> this, but I assume that a graph is less platform sensitive in terms of
> efficiency (all objects and references))
Enough MUD designs use in-game languages that DevMUD needs to support them.
A bytecoded virtual machine has both memory and speed advantages over other
kinds of interpreters, so I consider it obvious that we'll eventually write
one. I consider it equally obvious that not everyone will use it.
> > > - DevMUD will use 16 bit chars because it is cool (it is an international
> > > effort as well)
> >
> > I guess I can't disagree with that assesment. Some people think it is cool
> > to have slashes and dots through and around their vowels.
>
> You can do'em with 8bits too. Actually I think UNICODE is a good idea, but
> the extra problems has not been discussed. One problem is bandwidth and
> storage (could be solved by increasing complexity), another problem is
> look-up-tables, yet another problem is reuse of libraries (regexp and lex
> for instance).
DevMUD as I see it has 4 levels of support for a feature:
Required in all modules
Supported by some modules
Not yet implemented
Forbidden
You think putting Unicode in one of the middle two categories is a problem?
I think these are significant decisions, but I don't think they're nearly
as problematic as you seem to think they are.
Jon Leonard - Fallacy Watch and DevMUD Vision (was ... CoolComponentCore) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fallacy Watch and DevMUD Vision (was ... CoolComponentCore) Jon Leonard
- Flamebite of the day Vadim Tkachenko
- META: DevMUD, MUD-Dev, and (list) futures J C Lawrence
- META: DevMUD, MUD-Dev, and (list) futures Jon Leonard
- META: DevMUD, MUD-Dev, and (list) futures James Wilson
- META: DevMUD, MUD-Dev, and (list) futures J C Lawrence
- META: DevMUD, MUD-Dev, and (list) futures J C Lawrence
- DevMud RFC #1 - Was DevMUD considerations and the Halloween article James Wilson
- My vision for DevMUD Jon Leonard
- My vision for DevMUD Niklas Elmqvist
- My vision for DevMUD Jon Leonard
- My vision for DevMUD Thandor
- My vision for DevMUD Robert Woods
- My vision for DevMUD ApplePiMan@aol.com
- My vision for DevMUD Thandor
- My vision for DevMUD Jon Leonard
- My vision for DevMUD Adam J. Thornton
- My vision for DevMUD Jon Leonard
- My vision for DevMUD Adam J. Thornton
- My vision for DevMUD Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- My vision for DevMUD ApplePiMan@aol.com
- My vision for DevMUD James Wilson
- My vision for DevMUD ApplePiMan@aol.com
- My vision for DevMUD James Wilson
- My vision for DevMUD Jon A. Lambert
- My vision for DevMUD Darrin Hyrup
- My vision for DevMUD Jon Leonard
- My vision for DevMUD J C Lawrence
- My vision for DevMUD ApplePiMan@aol.com
- My vision for DevMUD ApplePiMan@aol.com
- My vision for DevMUD ApplePiMan@aol.com
- My vision for DevMUD Jon A. Lambert
- My vision for DevMUD Hal Black
- My vision for DevMUD ApplePiMan@aol.com
- My vision for DevMUD Jon A. Lambert
- My vision for DevMUD Chris Gray
- My vision for DevMUD Chris Gray
- My vision for DevMUD Ben Greear
- My vision for DevMUD Jo Dillon
- My vision for DevMUD Ben Greear
- DevMUD Prototyping (was META: DevMUD, MUD-Dev, and (list) futures) Jon Leonard
- DevCore Project Management Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DevCore Project Management Adam Wiggins
- DevCore Project Management Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DevCore Project Management Simon Duggan
- DevCore Project Management Jon Leonard
- DevCore Project Management Chris Gray
- DevCore Project Management Darrin Hyrup
- Fallacy Watch and DevMUD Vision (was ... CoolComponentCore) Chris Gray
- Drama Theory Ling
- Moral license (My vision for DevMUD) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Moral license (My vision for DevMUD) ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Moral license (My vision for DevMUD) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Fwd: My vision for DevMUD Jon Leonard
- DevMUD Prototyping Niklas Elmqvist
- Altima... Thandor
- Fwd: My vision for DevMUD Darrin Hyrup
- Tim O'Reilly's "Open Letter to Microsoft" ApplePiMan@aol.com
- Tim O'Reilly's "Open Letter to Microsoft" Adam Wiggins
- [DevMud] quick question... Franklyn Colebrooke, Jr.
- signal to noise... Andrew Wilson
- "knights and merchants" - NYTimes review James Wilson
- ADMIN: DevMUD posting authority promotions J C Lawrence
- A Small Conceptual Object System For MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A Small Conceptual Object System For MUDs Emil Eifrem
- A Small Conceptual Object System For MUDs Mark Gritter
- A Small Conceptual Object System For MUDs Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A Small Conceptual Object System For MUDs Jon A. Lambert
- Random Quest Generation chris@realm.zfn.uni-bremen.de
- Random Quest Generation Chris Gray
- Random Quest Generation Michael.Willey@abnamro.com
- Random Quest Generation J C Lawrence
- Random Quest Generation J C Lawrence
- Quick socket question Dr. Cat
- Quick socket question Jon Leonard
- Quick socket question Ben Greear
- Quick socket question Chris Gray
- Quick socket question J C Lawrence
- Quick socket question J C Lawrence
- Quick socket question Adam Wiggins
- Quick socket question Petri Virkkula
- ScryMUD [CUSTOM] Released under GNU General Public License Ben Greear
- Quick socket answer Dr. Cat
- Rebol Ling
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... quzah [sotfhome]
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Chris Gray
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... quzah [sotfhome]
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... JavaAl@aol.com
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Adam Wiggins
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... quzah [sotfhome]
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Nathan F Yospe
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... quzah [sotfhome]
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Hal Black
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Ling
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Ben Greear
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... quzah [sotfhome]
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... quzah [sotfhome]
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Hal Black
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Peck, Matthew x96724c1
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Nathan F Yospe
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Ben Greear
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... JavaAl@aol.com
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Chris Gray
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Nathan F Yospe
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Adam J. Thornton
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Franklyn Colebrooke, Jr.
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Emil Eifrem
- Spell components, chemistry, and the like... Nathan F Yospe
- ADMIN: Attributions J C Lawrence
- AMIN: Unsubscriptions J C Lawrence
- OO Design Question Brad Leach
- OO Design Question J C Lawrence
- Chemistry [Warning, scientific content] Peck, Matthew x96724c1
- MUD clients, testing Chris Gray
- MUD clients, testing Scatter
- MUD clients, testing J C Lawrence
- JOB: Project manager and scaling/networking guru needed for game project J C Lawrence
- More module ideas Mark Gritter
- The Innerworld Project Niklas Elmqvist
- META: FAQ's bios. Ling
- Mage 2 Mage 0.89 J C Lawrence
- Game library notes J C Lawrence
- World Building Page Ling
- ScryMUD [CUSTOM] Code release 1.8.1 Ben Greear
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Niklas Elmqvist
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer J C Lawrence
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Niklas Elmqvist
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer J C Lawrence
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Ling
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Niklas Elmqvist
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Ling
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Nathan F Yospe
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer J C Lawrence
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Niklas Elmqvist
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Marc Hernandez
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Marc Hernandez
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Mik Clarke
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Adam Wiggins
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Jon Leonard
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Niklas Elmqvist
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Greg Underwood
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Greg Underwood
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Marc Hernandez
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Greg Underwood
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Niklas Elmqvist
- DIS: Client-Server vs Peer-to-Peer Greg Underwood
- Ruminations on CVS and developing in the Bazaar Ben Greear
- Ruminations on CVS and developing in the Bazaar Chris Gray
- Ruminations on CVS and developing in the Bazaar greear@cyberhighway.net
- Ruminations on CVS and developing in the Bazaar J C Lawrence
- Ruminations on CVS and developing in the Bazaar greear@cyberhighway.net
- Ruminations on CVS and developing in the Bazaar J C Lawrence
- Ruminations on CVS and developing in the Bazaar Petri Virkkula
- DevMUD: List data, subscription, and the rest J C Lawrence
- DevMUD: List data, subscription, and the rest J C Lawrence
- Atention SSH/Java-developers (MindTerm update) J C Lawrence
- ScryMUD/Hegemon code Release Ben Greear