November 1997
- DESIGN: ECONOMICS: Money Supply coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon Leonard
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Vadim Tkachenko
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon A. Lambert
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Chris Gray
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon A. Lambert
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- SUMMARY: Skills and Skills improvement coder@ibm.net
- newbie Marc Eyrignoux
- Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)y Adam Wiggins
- Sorry... Bjarni Norddahl
- OT: threading list messages Alex Oren
- OT: threading list messages coder@ibm.net
- OT: threading list messages Alex Oren
- OT: threading list messages s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- OT: threading list messages Chris Gray
- AI Path Finding Todd Lair
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon Cline
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon Cline
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon J. Rickman
- A flamewar startingpoint. s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. JC Lawrence
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint. JC Lawrence
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Sauron
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Nathan Yospe
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Stephen Zepp
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Stephen Zepp
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- Noise-to-signal ratio Sauron
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Adam Wiggins
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Sauron
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Derrick Jones
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Mike Sellers
- Gender specific Adam Wiggins
- Gender specific Mike Sellers
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender specific Cynbe ru Taren
- Eating and sleeping (was: A flamewar startingpoint.) Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint.y Adam Wiggins
- SUMMARY: Mud Grammar Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Marian Griffith
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Matt Chatterley
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Vadim Tkachenko
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Chris Gray
- You, the game of philosophy. Stephen Zepp
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- Dynamic room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Naming and descriptions (was Introductions and descriptions) Mike Sellers
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Marian Griffith
- Introductions and descriptions Sauron
- Introductions and descriptions Marian Griffith
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Chris Gray
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Jon A. Lambert
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Brandon J. Rickman
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Vadim Tkachenko
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Derrick Jones
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Sauron
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Brandon J. Rickman
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Jon A. Lambert
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Introductions and Maddy
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and Ling
- Introductions and coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- mud time (A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Nostalgy (A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Matt Chatterley
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Adam Wiggins
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Derrick Jones
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Marian Griffith
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- requests Marian Griffith
- more requests Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Adam Wiggins
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Felix A. Croes
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Felix A. Croes
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Maddy
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Vadim Tkachenko
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Chris Gray
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Adam Wiggins
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
On 09/12/97 at 01:42 AM, Derrick Jones <gunther@online1.magnus1.com> said:
>On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Vadim Tkachenko wrote:
>> I believe that if you wouldn't know WHAT exactly has killed you, it
>> would be much easier to go with. In other words, you just can't
>> differentiate the monster/NPC from the different player, nothing
>> personal will be left.
>This is no small task.
Actually it happens as a side effect for me.
>Especially in most designs where all of the
>players are humanoids, and the vast majority of target creatures are not.
>Players quickly learn the 'normal' NPCs in each area, and characters
>typically stand out as they wander much more than any normal mobile
>should. Imagine a hack-N-slash mud where all the mobiles ran around
>speedwalking and killing a buch of stuff, then recalling before repeating
>the process somewhere else. Imagine the sheer spam in town when every
>creature decides to recall. Roleplay muds would be virtually impossible,
>unless you manage to pass the Turing test for mob AI.
Well, after a short while of play there are no more "normal" NPC
populations for me. For one there is zero difference between an NPC body
and a player character body -- especially seeing as all player bodies
(other than the default lumpy clay ones) were once NPC bodies. Next,
player pick up bodies and then move them about to do whatever they want,
with the result that the population is constantly stirred, with body types
(often freed from player control) now long seperated from their original
locations.
I did a short experiment a fair while back which may cast some extra light
here.
I got a few friends together at home and set them up on the various
machines on the home LAN and set to playing. We all went out, grabbed
various bodies, and decided to go on a killing spree (the idea was to play
with my then broken combat system). Gaily murdering off we went, leaving
a trail of corpses behind us, dropping bodies and stealing new ones as the
current one wore out or died.
BTW: There was one limit. BEsides the fact that we were all in the same
room, we were not allowed to talk to each other on game issues except thru
the game -- this was in attempt to simulate real players.
However, I had a hidden agenda, and ran a second login under a different
account. I had that account's character's bodies joined the killing party
and then during the fights instead of killing the intended victim, it
instead stole his body, and then using that as a base, in turn stole the
bodies of other members of the party. In all the spam of the combat,
exactly who lost what bodies to whom and how was often lost, and so my
secret 5th collumnists became accepted members of the group.
Aside: An interesting aspect was that the tacit definition of "what was
a killing group member" became that of "who followed and coordinated with
the actions of the group via the TELL's and SAY's". This was due to the
fact that I have no explicit group features.
This went on for a while, with me frantically writing scripts in the
background before it turned out that my secret account owned more than 50%
of the total body count in the party. i then had them all turn on the
rest of the party and slaughter them wholesale.
They were more than surprised.
I got a very very confused set of players for a while -- until they
figured it out, and went and repeated the same tactic on me (unsucessfully
twice, sucessfully three times).
Yes, its DOOM-esque. No, I don't think that really matters as character
investment is split between the bodies, the character, and the account.
Losing a body (unless your last one for perma-death) is usually not
catastrophic, merely inconvenient (roughly equivalent to be booted on a
normal MUD).
>> Also, I think that the idea about muting the offender is excellent, the
>> only thing I'd add to it that I'd strip the offender from his/her body
>> and give them, say, a rat's one. In other words, be prepared for others
>> do treat you as you've treated them before.
>There comes a point in which the player would be better off losing
>whatever 'soul points' he has accumulated, and restarting. Turning
>someone into a rat may simply be a dramatic way to purge them back to
>start-up abilities.
>[snip rest]
Ahh. I merely set a set of probability field weights on them to *really*
mess up their day. There's nothing like finding that all of a sudden
*everything* seems to be going wrong for you... It essentially translates
into a *REALLY* effective bad luck curse. The next addition there is to
add probability fields for critical cases, such that I can bless/curse a
body or character to succeed/fail more only on the critical calls.
--
J C Lawrence Internet: claw@null.net
----------(*) Internet: coder@ibm.net
...Honourary Member of Clan McFud -- Teamer's Avenging Monolith... - Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- fwd: Erasmatron Revs up Interactive Fiction Brandon J. Rickman
- Q: What are the coolest thief skills people have seen? coder@ibm.net
- Lots of things about me (long) Ling
- OT: my web pages Marian Griffith
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Ling
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Derrick Jones
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Michael Hohensee
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Chris Gray
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Chris Gray
- (Java, applets,) forests and ecologies. Marian Griffith
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Ling
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Adam Wiggins
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Chris Gray
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Richard Woolcock
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) coder@ibm.net
- ... forests and ecologies. Mike Sellers
- ... forests and ecologies. Jon A. Lambert
- ... forests and ecologies. coder@ibm.net
- Java Chris Gray