November 1997
- DESIGN: ECONOMICS: Money Supply coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon Leonard
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Vadim Tkachenko
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon A. Lambert
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Chris Gray
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon A. Lambert
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- SUMMARY: Skills and Skills improvement coder@ibm.net
- newbie Marc Eyrignoux
- Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)y Adam Wiggins
- Sorry... Bjarni Norddahl
- OT: threading list messages Alex Oren
- OT: threading list messages coder@ibm.net
- OT: threading list messages Alex Oren
- OT: threading list messages s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- OT: threading list messages Chris Gray
- AI Path Finding Todd Lair
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon Cline
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon Cline
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon J. Rickman
- A flamewar startingpoint. s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. JC Lawrence
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint. JC Lawrence
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Sauron
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Nathan Yospe
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Stephen Zepp
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Stephen Zepp
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- Noise-to-signal ratio Sauron
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Adam Wiggins
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Sauron
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Derrick Jones
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Mike Sellers
- Gender specific Adam Wiggins
- Gender specific Mike Sellers
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender specific Cynbe ru Taren
- Eating and sleeping (was: A flamewar startingpoint.) Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint.y Adam Wiggins
- SUMMARY: Mud Grammar Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Marian Griffith
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Matt Chatterley
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Vadim Tkachenko
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Chris Gray
- You, the game of philosophy. Stephen Zepp
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- Dynamic room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Naming and descriptions (was Introductions and descriptions) Mike Sellers
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Marian Griffith
- Introductions and descriptions Sauron
- Introductions and descriptions Marian Griffith
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Chris Gray
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Jon A. Lambert
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Brandon J. Rickman
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Vadim Tkachenko
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Derrick Jones
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Sauron
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Brandon J. Rickman
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Jon A. Lambert
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Introductions and Maddy
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and Ling
- Introductions and coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- mud time (A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Nostalgy (A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Matt Chatterley
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Adam Wiggins
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Derrick Jones
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Marian Griffith
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- requests Marian Griffith
- more requests Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Adam Wiggins
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Felix A. Croes
Last Wednesday, Mike Sellers wrote:
> At 09:15 AM 12/3/97 PST8PDT, Koster, Raph wrote:
> >Just as a quick aside, many of the solutions adopted in UO (which are
> >undeniably externally imposed solutions) were imposed purely because
> >of scale. What we found was that when dealing with a mass market
> >audience you have:
> >
> >- more jerks than you can handle
> >- more jerks than mass market people are willing to handle in their
> >play space
> >- a playerbase that assumes the game will settle their grievances,
> >rather than themselves
> >- the same tiny proportion as usual of people willing to enforce
> >societal mores.
>
> Yeah, this profile is becoming increasingly common -- we certainly were
> awash in this with M59 (as I'm sure Rich can tell you ;) ). In fact the
> first two points are encompassed by "Hanke's Law", which basically says
> that "in any virtual space, there will be some irreducible number of jerks
> [sometimes a stronger term is used here ;) ], and in general they will be
> more than any standing 'customer support' organization can handle." This,
> in my experience, has become axiomatic with large Internet spaces.
>
> However, I definitely disagree that this means that only externally-imposed
> solutions are viable. In fact, as we saw with M59 and as you guys are
> seeing now with UO, I believe that relying solely or even primarily on
> external solutions is doomed to failure -- and the larger or more immersive
> the world, the more this problem is amplified.
>
> Rather, I believe that we can (and must) make use of that small proportion
> of people (the usual 10% or 20% who do 80% or 90% of good things in any
> community setting) to create and enforce their own societal mores. We can
> best do this by understanding who these people are, and then giving them
> limited, compartmentalized, generally localized power -- but real power
> nonetheless to affect the social landscape of the game. In effect, this
> enables "the game" to settle their grievances, only now some of them have
> essentially become part of the game from others' point of view -- and as we
> know, often the best game play is created by the people in the game, not
> the monsters or situations we create externally. The same goes for
> resolving problems.
Unless the power to affect the game is available to everyone, this is
still what you called an externally-imposed solution -- there has to
be a sheriff to appoint the deputees.
In my experience, the mature, responsible players are even less
motivated than the paid staff to deal with the jerks. Dealing with
the jerks is not actually a very enjoyable occupation.
Also, I think that you perhaps use the idea of letting the game solve
itself too easily. Any workable solution has to include the troublemakers
in the game, too. That will be hard to accomplish without making it a
game especially for those players (cf. ichat), or removing the
differences between troublemakers and other players (cf. quake).
>[...]
> >So I have an answer to that question of a while ago, "How DO you
> >govern a mud with thousands of players?" Well, you try not to, but in
> >the end the answer is "painfully, with great difficulty, and a lot of
> >imperfect code crutches."
>
> I disagree, at least in terms of the imperfect code crutches. It's going
> to be painful for some folks, no doubt, but that's part of the adjustment
> of all of our social mores while these new societies get started. My goal
> is to make that pain as small and short as possible, and to eliminate as
> many of the code crutches as we can. I don't think the solutions we've
> seen thus far scale to where the Net and online entertainment spaces are
> going to be in, say, three to five years. IMO, we absolutely must stop
> looking at this as a problem with a technical solution, and begin
> addressing it as a predictable and tractable situation with social
> solutions.
Agreed, with one qualification: I want the result to be a mud.
Felix Croes - Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Felix A. Croes
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Maddy
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Vadim Tkachenko
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Chris Gray
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Adam Wiggins
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- fwd: Erasmatron Revs up Interactive Fiction Brandon J. Rickman
- Q: What are the coolest thief skills people have seen? coder@ibm.net
- Lots of things about me (long) Ling
- OT: my web pages Marian Griffith
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Ling
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Derrick Jones
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Michael Hohensee
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Chris Gray
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Chris Gray
- (Java, applets,) forests and ecologies. Marian Griffith
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Ling
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Adam Wiggins
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Chris Gray
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Richard Woolcock
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) coder@ibm.net
- ... forests and ecologies. Mike Sellers
- ... forests and ecologies. Jon A. Lambert
- ... forests and ecologies. coder@ibm.net
- Java Chris Gray