November 1997
- DESIGN: ECONOMICS: Money Supply coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon Leonard
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Vadim Tkachenko
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon A. Lambert
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Chris Gray
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Matt Chatterley
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Derrick Jones
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Jon A. Lambert
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Adam Wiggins
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Richard Woolcock
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. coder@ibm.net
- Less numbers, more roleplaying. Marian Griffith
- SUMMARY: Skills and Skills improvement coder@ibm.net
- newbie Marc Eyrignoux
- Fear of magic (was:Usability and interface)y Adam Wiggins
- Sorry... Bjarni Norddahl
- OT: threading list messages Alex Oren
- OT: threading list messages coder@ibm.net
- OT: threading list messages Alex Oren
- OT: threading list messages s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- OT: threading list messages Chris Gray
- AI Path Finding Todd Lair
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon Cline
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon Cline
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Brandon J. Rickman
- A flamewar startingpoint. s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint. Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. JC Lawrence
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint. JC Lawrence
- A flamewar startingpoint. Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. Sauron
- A flamewar startingpoint. Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Matt Chatterley
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint. Nathan Yospe
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Miroslav Silovic
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Marian Griffith
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Stephen Zepp
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Stephen Zepp
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Jon A. Lambert
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Chris Gray
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Adam Wiggins
- A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- A flamewar startingpoint. coder@ibm.net
- A flamewar startingpoint.) coder@ibm.net
- Noise-to-signal ratio Sauron
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Adam Wiggins
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Sauron
- Gender specific Marian Griffith
- Gender specific Derrick Jones
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Mike Sellers
- Gender specific Adam Wiggins
- Gender specific Mike Sellers
- Gender specific Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Gender specific Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Gender specific Cynbe ru Taren
- Eating and sleeping (was: A flamewar startingpoint.) Derrick Jones
- A flamewar startingpoint.y Adam Wiggins
- SUMMARY: Mud Grammar Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Richard Woolcock
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- You, the game of philosophy. Adam Wiggins
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Marian Griffith
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Matt Chatterley
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. JC Lawrence
- You, the game of philosophy. Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Vadim Tkachenko
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. Derrick Jones
- You, the game of philosophy. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- You, the game of philosophy. coder@ibm.net
- You, the game of philosophy. Chris Gray
- You, the game of philosophy. Stephen Zepp
- You, the game of philosophy. Jon A. Lambert
- Dynamic room descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Naming and descriptions (was Introductions and descriptions) Mike Sellers
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Marian Griffith
- Introductions and descriptions Sauron
- Introductions and descriptions Marian Griffith
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Chris Gray
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Jon A. Lambert
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Brandon J. Rickman
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and descriptions Derrick Jones
- Introductions and descriptions Vadim Tkachenko
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and descriptions Maddy
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and descriptions Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Derrick Jones
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Sauron
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Marian Griffith
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Brandon J. Rickman
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Adam Wiggins
- Introductions and Matt Chatterley
- Introductions and Mike Sellers
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Jon A. Lambert
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Introductions and Maddy
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- Introductions and coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and Ling
- Introductions and coder@ibm.net
- Introductions and Richard Woolcock
- mud time (A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Nostalgy (A flamewar startingpoint.) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Matt Chatterley
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Adam Wiggins
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Caliban Tiresias Darklock
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Derrick Jones
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Marian Griffith
- Communication [was Introductions and..] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- requests Marian Griffith
- more requests Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Adam Wiggins
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Felix A. Croes
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Felix A. Croes
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Maddy
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Ling wrote:
> Here are some of my insights into society. They're very crude, cynical,
> impassionate and probably misled. But I've only lived a couple of
> decades.
They're also insightful and frightfully close to the mark.
> - A higher proportion of people in muds can and will be jerks publically
> infront of strangers.
> - Why does the same not apply to life?
I tend to think that people act as jerks outside a mud Universe; the
difference being one of scale.
> - Because of comeback, because they're receive pain either physically o
> mentally. I do not go around clubbing someone I don't like for fear of
> arrest.
> - But mudders get 'arrested' too!
> - Yes but it is a persona being arrested. Anyway, there are plenty of
> other muds to go piss on.
Here you have to observe motivation. People are jerks for different
reasons:
1. noteriety. Sure, they'll be known as jerks, but they'll be _known_.
How do you make yourself stand out? Affect major change in the mud you're
playing. Most mud designs are geared in such a way that 'bad' change can
be achieved much better than 'good' change. (quick definition: bad
meaning that is lessens the enjoyment for the other players) Why is this?
Well, destructive acts (starting a forest fire, leveling a town, going on
a pk spree) are quick and there's no doubt as to the cause. The only
suggestion here is to perhaps stress positive actions, and other such
mindgames with the mud populace.
2. 'revenge' A player has been wronged in their eyes by the staff (the
design/code/admin isn't what they're looking for usually) and wants to
make life intolerable for them (If I can't play the way _I_ want to, then
no one else will either...). Here, the admin's only hope is swift and
harsh justice, that is if mind-games with the player doesn't work. You'll
piss off a few people, but save many more people long headaches.
3. 'venting' Players vent their RL anger in an IC way. very cathardic.
I've been known to do it myself. There's no real defence short of knowing
your players personally. These 'jerk-like' outbursts can come from even
the best players, and are usually isolated acts (how to admin/punish
these? dunno...any thoughts?)
4. 'immunity' How much damage can an IMP actually _do_ to a jerk player?
Probably the worst is purge/ban. Big deal. Sure the player loses maybe
100 hours total on-line time(for the most established players), but how
does this compare to the time it takes to bring a mud from preliminary
design through production and administration? Not to meantion all the
time the other players affected by the jerk have invested...Personally, I
think I'm going to include a hidden routine within the client that will
allow an IMP to reformat the drive on which the client is located. I
wonder what the legal implications of this would be? Then I'm probably
better off not knowing...
5. ignorance...A widespread problem today. Players can't comprehend the
fact that they are jerks. How many players have sworn up until the bitter
end that they did nothing wrong, even when it is obvious to others that
they did? Short of a shotgun, there's no RL solution to ignorance.
I'm sure there's a few more, but those are the main ones I've seen...
Any suggestions on:
++identifying potential jerks before they do much damage
++how to get jerks to leave willingly? (this causes much less resentment
from the rest of the playerbase). I've noticed that even after a _real_
jerk gets banned, a number of otherwise complacent players are up in arms
about 'those nazi admins'...Seems they feel threatened by the IMP's use of
power, even when its clearly justified and done for their sake...
++How to market towards 'better' players, to reduce the ratio of jerks to
decent players.
++keeping incidents isolated(Usually there's one original jerk out there,
then when he gets going, others seem to follow him...)
> - So get muds to form an informal mud alliance where someone blacklisted
> on one mud will find life difficult on other muds.
> - This might work, difficulty in implementing due to the way people can
> change their id so easily.
Hrm...perhaps some Big Brother mailing list circulating the ID's of banned
players from various muds, combined with a routine to automatically forbid
players who have been banned from 2 MUDs (I'm feeling nice..give 'em a
second chance) from logging on. Of course people could change their ID to
get around this, but it would weed out quite a few twinks who don't know
any better, and even the hard-core hackers would hopefully get the hint.
Gunther - Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Koster, Raph
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Vadim Tkachenko
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Richard Woolcock
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Chris Gray
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Marian Griffith
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Adam Wiggins
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ling
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Mike Sellers
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Derrick Jones
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Stephen Zepp
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] Matt Chatterley
- Guilds & Politics [was Affecting the World] JC Lawrence
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] s001gmu@nova.wright.edu
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] coder@ibm.net
- Adventurer Groups [was Affecting the World] Jon A. Lambert
- fwd: Erasmatron Revs up Interactive Fiction Brandon J. Rickman
- Q: What are the coolest thief skills people have seen? coder@ibm.net
- Lots of things about me (long) Ling
- OT: my web pages Marian Griffith
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Ling
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Derrick Jones
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Michael Hohensee
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Chris Gray
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Java, applets, forests and ecologies. Chris Gray
- (Java, applets,) forests and ecologies. Marian Griffith
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Ling
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Adam Wiggins
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Chris Gray
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) Richard Woolcock
- Thief skills, Dream Park and me (again) coder@ibm.net
- ... forests and ecologies. Mike Sellers
- ... forests and ecologies. Jon A. Lambert
- ... forests and ecologies. coder@ibm.net
- Java Chris Gray