July 2007

• [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Jim Purbrick
• • [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Christopher Lloyd
• [BIZ] Forum software? Mike Rozak
• • [BIZ] Forum software? Caliban Darklock
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? Adam Martin
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Chan Yong Wei
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Michael Chui
  • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Dana V. Baldwin
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Morgan Ramsay
• [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? cruise
• [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Aurel Mihai
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                On 9/14/07, Vincent Archer <archer@frmug.org> wrote:
                                > According to Caliban Darklock:
                                > > > That was an old bone in the original thread. People kept trying to
                                > > > shoehorn the achievement model into a standard xp model.
                                > >
                                > > You don't have to try. How is an achievement different from XP?
                                >
                                > Because it has one very different property from classical xp.
                                >
                                > It cannot be repeated.
                                
                                This isn't really true.
                                
                                You kill monster X and you get an achievement, and now you never kill
                                monster X again. Instead you kill monster Y and you get an
                                achievement.
                                
                                You deliver item A to person B and you get an achievement, and now you
                                never do that again. Instead you deliver item C to person D and you
                                get an achievement.
                                
                                You escort NPC 1 to location 2 and you get an achievment, and now you
                                never do that again. Instead you escort NPC 3 to location 4 and you
                                get an achievement.
                                
                                Pretty soon, you get "This monster is just like the last one, only
                                orange!" syndrome. Internally, the achievement only happens once. To
                                the player, however, each of these scenarios is still the same one
                                over and over. Every time you deliver an item to someone, it's the
                                same damn quest. The player doesn't say "thank God I'm delivering
                                different items to different people!", he says "WTF, am I paying
                                $14.95 a month to run a damn delivery service?"
                                
                                > In the classic XP, you kill a level 1 mob, you get xp. You kill a
                                > second level 1 mob, you get xp. You kill enough level 1 mobs, you get
                                > to level 50.
                                
                                Whereas in your system, if it's properly balanced such that the
                                average player with a level X character is challenged just enough by a
                                level X task, level 50 is only gained with the accomplishment of 6275
                                tasks.
                                
                                Can you even THINK of 6275 tasks? If it takes one hour for a designer
                                to build one (HAHAHAHAHA... sorry), that's three years. What's the
                                industry average? Ten hours? Twenty? How many designers are you going
                                to have? How much TIME do you have?
                                
                                Amateurs talk tactics. Professionals talk logistics.
                                
                                > In the achievement system, you kill a level 1 mob, you prove you can
                                > kill a level 1 mob. You kill another level 1 mob, you haven't proved
                                > anything you didn't before.
                                
                                In a world where the most expensive and difficult part of your
                                development cycle is the production of enough content to keep your
                                players happy, actively forbidding your players to enjoy the same
                                content repeatedly is pretty retarded.
                                
                                > > > they tell me my hammer is a poor excuse of a hammer.
                                > >
                                > > And precisely how many people have to say this before you think "maybe
                                > > I'm wrong"?
                                >
                                > Because it's not a hammer.
                                
                                But the problem is a nail. Which is precisely why people are saying
                                GET A HAMMER, NOT AN UMBRELLA. We're not saying that the system you
                                have is a hammer. We're saying that you're trying to drive a nail, and
                                your tool is not good for driving nails.
                                
                                > In your perspective, a level achieves that by virtue of defining a
                                > character abilities and stats.
                                
                                Yes. For thirty years, that is what "level" has meant in the context
                                of an RPG setting. If that isn't what you're talking about, DON'T CALL
                                IT LEVEL.
                                
                                On 9/14/07, Michael Chui <saraid@u.washington.edu> wrote:
                                >
                                > Rewards do not an achievement make.
                                
                                I never said they did. I said this system is no different than an XP
                                system, which is also an achievement system.
                              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Arras
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Acius
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Jarod Reid
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
• [DESIGN] Believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Nicholas Koranda
• [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Jon Leonard
    • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
    • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
        • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Michael Chui
          • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency John Buehler
              • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Johnicholas Hines
• [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Travis Casey
  • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation cruise
  • • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Darryl Woodford