July 2007

• [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Jim Purbrick
• • [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Christopher Lloyd
• [BIZ] Forum software? Mike Rozak
• • [BIZ] Forum software? Caliban Darklock
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? Adam Martin
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Chan Yong Wei
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Michael Chui
  • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Dana V. Baldwin
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Morgan Ramsay
• [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? cruise
• [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Aurel Mihai
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                          Thus spake Caliban Darklock...
                          > On 8/30/07, Vincent Archer <archer@frmug.org> wrote:
                          >> Make it so that killing a level A mob is a level A+5
                          >> achievement, reduce the visual level of all mobs by 5, and, at level6,
                          >> killing a level 2 mob gives you an achievement, while killing a
                          >> level 1 mob won't.
                          >
                          > Now you're just replacing parts of the XP system. Eventually, you're
                          > going to end up with a convoluted series of rules that add up to an XP
                          > system just like the one we've always had.
                          
                          In other words, the reward systems are very similar - because the
                          argument is really about how the rewards add up - it's about what the
                          rewards are given /for/.
                          
                          In an XP system, killing a level 6 Orc might give you 1/6th of the XP to
                          get to level 7 (from level 6) - or it might count as a "level 6
                          achievement", of which 6 will reward you with level 7.
                          
                          Whcih way you do it doesn't really matter because *each achievement
                          counts only once* - killing another level 6 Orc gives you nothing. Even
                          at level 6.
                          
                          Why the hell would we want to do this?
                          
                          Because the level is not the reward. Because the XP/achievement is not
                          the reward. The player level is simply a marker of the player's competence.
                          
                          The fun should come from the game itself - you defeat an Orc because
                          it's fun to fight, not because it gives you XP. If the fight is fun,
                          that's the reward, not the XP.
                          
                          >> The question is: why? Why do you NEED to kill a level 1 mob *and* be
                          >> rewarded for it, at level 2.
                          >
                          > The corollary question is: Why not?
                          
                          Because if you're killing the mob because it's fun, then that's the
                          reward. Technically, you are being "rewarded" still.
                          
                          > "Why" is easily answered. I should be rewarded for killing a level 1
                          > mob because I used to be rewarded for killing a level 1 mob. A level 1
                          > mob produces a reward.
                          
                          Only if you enjoyed the fight. The "level 1" achievement the game takes
                          note of when you do is /not/ a reward any more than the game noting you
                          moved forward. It's simply a state.
                          
                          > That is the standard. The reward may be minimal
                          > or even negligible, but it should by all rights be the same reward all
                          > the time. That is what I expect from an online world: predictability.
                          
                          It is predictable - if you enjoyed fighting the mob before, you probably
                          will the next time. The reward has not changed. Your "level" is no more
                          a reward than, say, the amount of mana left over after the fight - sure,
                          you can use it to see how you're improving, or how well the fight went,
                          but having more after the fight than last time isn't the reward. Ditto
                          your level or achievement count.
                          
                          > I think this is more likely to be accurate self-assessment than some
                          > sort of failure. Most people figure out whether they can fight mobs
                          > above their own level by looking at how well they do against mobs *at*
                          > their own level. If they do badly, they tend to back up and look to
                          > lower level mobs. I don't think anyone's out there killing termites
                          > because they simply don't know they can kill bears; I think they've
                          > more likely either tried and failed to kill bears, or decided they
                          > just plain aren't interested in killing bears. While you and I may
                          > think killing bears is ever so much fun and everyone should try it, we
                          > really don't get to tell everyone else how to play the game.
                          
                          That's what most people do now because that's how the games are
                          structured - that doesn't mean that's the /only/ way it can work.
                          
                          Players can kill whatever they want, as much as they like. Their level
                          is merely an indication to them and others of what strength of creature
                          they can likely handle. Gaining a level doesn't "powerup" the player in
                          any way - that happens through normal play. Being able to defeat a bear
                          when you couldn't before is the reward because the player has improved,
                          not because they've killed enough termites they've outleveled the bear.
                          
                          >> It's a problem of perception. You perceive content "below
                          >> your level" to be worthy, and "just below your level" to be good, and
                          >> content "above your level" to have to wait until you're ready.
                          >
                          > I perceive content that looks like fun to be worthy, and I don't
                          > recognise any authority on your part to tell me otherwise. If I'm too
                          > low a level to do something, that's a goal. If I'm too high a level to
                          > do something, that's your game sucking.
                          >
                          > The main reason people do low level tasks is usually because higher
                          > level tasks are either too difficult or not fun. Forcing them to do
                          > those tasks anyway is not a model for success.
                          
                          No one's "forcing" them to do anything. You can fight whatever you like.
                          Levelling up is /not/ the reward. XP/achievements are /not/ the reward.
                          *Playing the game* is.
            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Arras
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Acius
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Jarod Reid
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
• [DESIGN] Believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Nicholas Koranda
• [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Jon Leonard
    • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
    • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
        • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Michael Chui
          • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency John Buehler
              • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Johnicholas Hines
• [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Travis Casey
  • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation cruise
  • • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Darryl Woodford