July 2007

• [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Jim Purbrick
• • [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Christopher Lloyd
• [BIZ] Forum software? Mike Rozak
• • [BIZ] Forum software? Caliban Darklock
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? Adam Martin
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Chan Yong Wei
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Michael Chui
  • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Dana V. Baldwin
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Morgan Ramsay
• [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? cruise
• [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Aurel Mihai
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                        On 10/1/07, Vincent Archer <archer@frmug.org> wrote:
                                        > According to Caliban Darklock:
                                        > > Changing "eventually" to "immediately" is not even remotely
                                        > > revolutionary. It's a minor change to the existing system. It doesn't
                                        > > even solve or fix anything.
                                        >
                                        > It's not a minor change, it's a qualitative change. In the achievement
                                        > system, you get a mark for doing something exactly once, and no more.
                                        
                                        That doesn't sound qualitative at all. It sounds quantitative. In an
                                        XP system, I earn in-game advancement for doing this every time. In an
                                        achievement system, I earn in-game advancement for it once and only
                                        once.
                                        
                                        Why is "once and only once" /better/ than "every time"? Doesn't this
                                        violate the player expectation of consistency?
                                        
                                        > Actually, real achievers hate the kind of activity you're advocating.
                                        
                                        Who made you the arbiter of what a "real" achiever is?
                                        
                                        > Slaughtering hordes of unchallenging mobs for the "ding" sound is not
                                        > remotely interesting. The ONLY reason they keep doing it is because it
                                        > happens to be the fastest way they found of getting their next power-up.
                                        
                                        And whatever that fastest way becomes, THEY WILL DO THAT. They will
                                        not do what you want. They will do what is fastest. They will exploit
                                        any bug or inconsistency they find in the system to do it. You cannot
                                        FORCE your players to play the way YOU want the game played.
                                        
                                        > Games that feature an xp-based advancement system have tried a lot
                                        > of contorsion to remove the kind of mechanism you seem bent of pushing.
                                        
                                        There is a big difference between "not required" and "not allowed". If
                                        you don't understand that, you have no business designing multiplayer
                                        game systems.
                                        
                                        > Your level is the reward for time spent in game. My level is the
                                        > reward for things done in game. See the difference?
                                        
                                        No, because YOU DON'T GET XP FOR STANDING AROUND. You get them for
                                        DOING THINGS. It doesn't have anything whatsoever to do with time
                                        spent in game.
                                        
                                        > Merely spending time, doing things that are trivial
                                        > and even easily automated should not have any form of reward.
                                        
                                        Do you know why I can deadlift 600 pounds?
                                        
                                        Because I took a bar, and I picked it up over and over again. Then I
                                        added a little weight to it, and I picked it up over and over again
                                        some more. And now, after a couple years of that, I can pick up a
                                        refrigerator.
                                        
                                        Trivial, easily automated movements repeated over an extensive period
                                        of time produce rewards. Indeed, they produce rewards that cannot be
                                        achieved any other way.
                                        
                                        If you don't understand that, you can't possibly be elite at anything.
                                        You're not building an elitist system. You're building a system you
                                        think will give YOU the advantage, instead of the guy who has it
                                        today. That's not "elitist". That's "unfair". And unfair systems suck.
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Arras
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Acius
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Jarod Reid
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
• [DESIGN] Believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Nicholas Koranda
• [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Jon Leonard
    • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
    • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
        • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Michael Chui
          • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency John Buehler
              • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Johnicholas Hines
• [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Travis Casey
  • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation cruise
  • • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Darryl Woodford