July 2007

• [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Jim Purbrick
• • [JOB] Linden Lab Brighton Party 26th July Christopher Lloyd
• [BIZ] Forum software? Mike Rozak
• • [BIZ] Forum software? Caliban Darklock
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? Adam Martin
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Chan Yong Wei
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Michael Chui
  • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Dana V. Baldwin
  • • [BIZ] Forum software? David Johansson
  • [BIZ] Forum software? Morgan Ramsay
• [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Will players pay for public services? cruise
• [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Aurel Mihai
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                      According to Caliban Darklock:
                                      > Changing "eventually" to "immediately" is not even remotely
                                      > revolutionary. It's a minor change to the existing system. It doesn't
                                      > even solve or fix anything.
                                      
                                      It's not a minor change, it's a qualitative change. In the achievement
                                      system, you get a mark for doing something exactly once, and no more.
                                      
                                      You can repeat it, and find a way of getting something for the repetition,
                                      cash, crafting materials, items, but that's not going to be in the form
                                      of level.
                                      
                                      > That's black and white thinking. If ANY of the enjoyment comes from
                                      > the advancement, it's now less enjoyable. You're trying to decouple
                                      > advancement from enjoyment, but to the vast majority of players, the
                                      > advancement IS the enjoyment. For those who don't enjoy advancement,
                                      > this kind of game is usually stupid and pointless
                                      
                                      Actually, real achievers hate the kind of activity you're advocating.
                                      Slaughtering hordes of unchallenging mobs for the "ding" sound is not
                                      remotely interesting. The ONLY reason they keep doing it is because it
                                      happens to be the fastest way they found of getting their next power-up.
                                      
                                      Games that feature an xp-based advancement system have tried a lot
                                      of contorsion to remove the kind of mechanism you seem bent of pushing.
                                      Since my original post (which was in sept. 2004), games like World of
                                      Warcraft (which debuted the month after) or Lord of the Rings Online
                                      have done all they could to offer the player a path of minimum repetition.
                                      They've pushed the concept of quests, non-repeatable ones, as the best
                                      path, in terms of level/hour.
                                      
                                      > IT'S A NAIL.
                                      
                                      No it's not.
                                      
                                      If you persist at wanting the game to reward you every single minute
                                      you spend in-game, then my umbrella is a real poor hammer: it's not
                                      going to give you what you want. My level is not the level you want.
                                      Your level is the reward for time spent in game. My level is the
                                      reward for things done in game. See the difference?
                                      
                                      I *do not want to reward time spent in game*. That's the furthest
                                      thing from my mind. Merely spending time, doing things that are trivial
                                      and even easily automated should not have any form of reward. If you
                                      want them to have one, my umbrella is not going to hit your nail very
                                      well, because I do not want to hit your nail.
                                      
                                      Now, before you start again:
                                      
                                      > treat" system we use with dogs - and your system looks very much like
                                      > a "bad dog no biscuit" method of forcing players into the behavior you
                                      > find desirable.
                                      
                                      ... my goal was never to make WoW2. If I want to make a mass appeal
                                      game with 1 million subscribers, I'm going to use tried and true methods,
                                      with as much variety of possible behaviours I can reward. And using the
                                      well-known methods to hook players - which is good, nice, steady stream
                                      of rewards. XP.
                                      
                                      However, if I want a game that is extremely elitist, in which high-level
                                      characters are in fact high-skilled players, that's what I'm going to
                                      look for. As originally said:
                                      
                                      > Some players will also find themselves locked out of higher levels.
                                      > Unless they manage to master enough aspects of the game, it is
                                      > physically impossible for them, no matter how long they can play per
                                      > week, to access the higher end of the game
                                      
                                      Note that the above is already true in games like WoW. A lot of people
                                      can't access the higher end of the game - because that higher end is
                                      no longer level-based. At one point, the level system breaks down as
                                      a measure of your progression, and you resort to other mechanisms, like
                                      item-based progression.
                                      
                                      --
                                      Vincent Archer Email: archer@frmug.org
                                      
                                      All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates.
                                      (Woody Allen)
                                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                                  • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
                            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Michael Chui
                            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
            • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Arras
          • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
              • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                  • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Damion Schubert
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... John Buehler
                      • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
                        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Acius
              • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
          • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Tom Hudson
        • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Caliban Darklock
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Jarod Reid
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Removing the almighty experience point... Travis Casey
• [DESIGN] Believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Nicholas Koranda
• [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Travis Casey
  • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Jon Leonard
    • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
    • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Peter Keeler
        • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Michael Chui
          • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency John Buehler
              • [DESIGN] Active and Inactive Currency Johnicholas Hines
• [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Nicholas Koranda
• • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Travis Casey
  • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation cruise
  • • [DESIGN] Expected value and standard deviation Darryl Woodford