May 2007

• [DESIGN] Developing and balancing a roleplaying system Calvin
• [ADMIN] Bounced Posts? Nick Koranda
• [Offtopic] Lend your ears to science! Mike Rozak
• [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Lachek Butalek
• • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Jacob Cord
  • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Steve "Bloo" Daniels
    • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Damion Schubert
      • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? John Buehler
        • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Damion Schubert
          • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Tess Snider
              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Raph Koster
                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                    • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Raph Koster
                      • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                        • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                                  • [DESIGN} Who to design for? cruise
                                  • [DESIGN} Who to design for? John MacQueen
                              • "The Next Big Thing" (was [DESIGN} Who to design for?) Mike Sellers
                              • • "The Next Big Thing" (was [DESIGN} Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                                • • "The Next Big Thing" (was [DESIGN} Who to design for?) Peter Keeler
                          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Michael Chui
                          • [DESIGN] Who to design for? Michael Hartman
                      • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Damion Schubert
                      • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                  • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Tess Snider
                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? cruise
              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                    • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                      • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                        • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Dana V. Baldwin
                              • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                                    • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
              • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Mike Sellers
                Sean Howard wrote:
                > "Damion Schubert" <dschubert@gmail.com> wrote:
                >
                > > 1) Your game design should have a central theme or activity that
                > everyone
                > > gets and understands.
                >
                > I agree with the central them - big fan of strong backbones here - but I'm
                > not sure I understand the "everyone gets" thing. I'm not sure everyone
                > "gets" the average MUD or MMORPG unless they've already played one. I
                > don't know, maybe that's the main obstacle against adoption.
                
                It is. If you're interested in this sort of thing, I recommend highly the
                classic "Crossing the Chasm" and even more, "The Secrets of Word of Mouth
                Marketing." Excellent books that are applicable to a lot more than
                marketing. The kind of things that Damion is talking about here fit right
                in there: evangelists, early adopters, pragmatists, skeptics, and laggards.
                
                > > 2) Your game design should have appeal to the hardcore, which is usually
                > > done by taking the central theme as far as it can go (raids and sieges
                > in
                > > most classical MMOs), with higher time requirements, etc.
                >
                > No way. Screw those hardcore bastards. Those guys are absolutely the
                > single greatest threat to the long term viability of MMORPGs that we have.
                > Right now, the industry can't seem to ignore them, but with stuff like the
                > Wii and casual gaming becoming a VERY big market, I don't think we'll have
                > to give in to their demands much longer.
                
                The hard-core tend to also be evangelists for a given product, so they make
                a natural first set of customers. But you have a point about catering too
                much to the core in a way that limits our designs -- a point I think we're
                at, or past, with a lot of fantasy MMOs. Finding other ways to attract
                potential evangelists (with a clearly crafted message, as Damion says) is a
                key task for anyone making next-generation games.
                
                > I stand by the cookie analogy. Hardcore gamers want cookies, and we just
                > keep giving them cookies - soon they start to think they deserve cookies,
                > that they are entitled to all cookies, all the time. They are capable of
                > eating other foods, and I think we should force them to eat some
                > vegetables every once in a while to put them in their place. They'll be
                > better people because of it.
                
                Hmm. If you're making a product for people to buy -- *especially* an
                entertainment product -- it's not really your place to "force" people to do
                anything. I mean, you can try, but people tend not to agree to being forced
                into activities they don't find enjoyable.
                
                > > 3) Your game design should have casual appeal, which is usually about
                > > ensuring that the central theme or activity is not alienating to the
                > > casual player the first time he logs in, and is actually easy and fun
                > > without unnecessary roadblocks.
                >
                > I think you've already got the casual gamer by the time they've bought the
                > game - it doesn't matter what's actually in the game.
                
                That's assuming they've *bought* the game, which is increasingly a poor
                assumption. Even with games downloaded online, you can't assume you have
                someone when they "get" your game. Daniel James said that of all the people
                who start the download for "Bang Howdy", only 8% actually play the game. If
                you're talking about a game bought at retail, you probably lose 90% or more
                who never even leave home for the store to buy it -- if they even know it
                exists.
                
                > It doesn't matter
                > what the controls are like, or the difficulty curve is like, or how easy
                > it is to set up. Casual gamers don't download demos from FilePlanet. They
                > don't try before they buy.
                
                That's really not the case. There are many more casual gamers trying and
                buying games online than there are core MMO players altogether.
                
                > I think you can sell very complex games to casual gamers. It doesn't have
                > to be easy. Chess isn't easy, it's not fun (in the traditional sense), and
                > with specialized pieces with non-standard movement and capturing
                > abilities, there is quite a learning curve. Chess (or even Monopoly or
                > Risk) is far more complicated than something like God of War, and yet,
                > everybody has played it. This leads me to believe that the difference
                > between a casual game and a hardcore game is nothing more than flashiness.
                
                There are a whole lot of other and more important differences than just
                flashiness! One of the biggest is the degree of aggressiveness in the
                gameplay (despite its theme, chess is not inherently aggressive in its
                play); another is the degree of psychological exposure -- is it "you" in the
                game, or a clearly differentiated character?
                
                Casual gamers tend to play non-aggressive games where there's a
                psychological distance between themselves and the play field or theme, where
                their time investment is very low ("I can quit whenever I want to"), where
                the probability of embarrassment is non-existent, where relationships rather
                than dominance are thematically important, and where the play is as
                important if not more important than the score, standings, or level
                achieved.
                
                Many core/achiever gamers find this difficult to believe or internalize, of
                course.
                
                > > 4) Your game design should result in a culture where hardcore players
                > are
                > > evangelizing the game to casual players. WoW's success comes largely
                > > from classic EQ players finally being willing to recommend an MMO to
                > > their wives and girlfriends.
                >
                > I think you've got that backwards. You need the non-hardcore (not casual,
                > but somewhere inbetween - maybe a hardcore gamer who grew up and had a
                > family and still tries to keep up with gaming) to evangelize a game to the
                > casual player. WoW's success didn't come from Everquest. It came from
                > Diablo and Warcraft II - two games which breached that gap before. Once
                > you have the hardcore talking about a game, they talk about the wrong
                > stuff and put the emphasis on the wrong things, and it will do more harm
                > than good for casual players.
                
                You have a good point about the Warcraft brand already having reached out to
                non-hard-core gamers, but Damion's not wrong: according to the Daedalus
                project (http://www.nickyee.com/daedalus/archives/001335.php) 40% of women
                playing WoW were introduced to it by a romantic partner or family member,
                while only 8.4% of men found the game that way. Clearly there's a lot of
                evangelizing of gamers to non-gamers in WoW's success.
                
                
                Mike Sellers
            • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Tess Snider
            • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Mike Sellers
              • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Mike Sellers
                  • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                    • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Michael Chui
                  • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Peter Keeler
                  • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Ammon Lauritzen
                    • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                    • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Lachek Butalek
                      • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Dana V. Baldwin
          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? cruise
          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
        • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Steve "Bloo" Daniels
        • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Caliban Darklock
          • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs cruise
            • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Steve "Bloo" Daniels
  • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Tess Snider
  • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Lachek Butalek
    • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Chui
      • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Ian Hess
      • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Ian Hess
      • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Tess Snider
      • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Lachek Butalek
        • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Hartman
          • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Kiztent
            • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Jean, Yannick
            • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Hartman
              • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Vincent Archer
                • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Dave Scheffer
          • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Tess Snider
          • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Chui
  • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs John Buehler
  • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Morris Cox
  • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Dana V. Baldwin
    • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Matt Chatterley
      • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Dana V. Baldwin
        • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Chui
        • • [Design] Obstacles and Hindrances [was: Food in MMOs & Perma-death] cruise
• [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
• • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Steve "Bloo" Daniels
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Nick Koranda
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Damion Schubert
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
      • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Steve "Bloo" Daniels
        • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Steve "Bloo" Daniels
            • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Tess Snider
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Cory Cohen
    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Matt Chatterley
    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Craig Huber
    • • [JOBS] Areae hiring Raph Koster
    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Phillip Lenhardt
    • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
      • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
      • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Tess Snider
        • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Tess Snider
            • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
              • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dave Scheffer
                • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
                  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dave Scheffer
          • [DESIGN] Perma-death Matt Chatterley
          • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
              • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
              • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
        • [DESIGN] Perma-death Caliban Darklock
        • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Peter Keeler
            • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
              • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Peter Keeler
                • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
                  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Peter Keeler
                    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Michael Chui
      • [DESIGN] Perma-death Soy weiser
      • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Ammon Lauritzen
        • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Ammon Lauritzen
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death John Buehler
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Hans Häggström
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
• [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Adam Martin
• • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Morgan Ramsay
  • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Sean Howard
  • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Adam Martin
    • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Sean Howard
      • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Mike Sellers
        • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Michael Zenke
          • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Sean Howard
          • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Mike Rozak
          • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Mike Sellers
    • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Caliban Darklock
  • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Mike Rozak
  • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Sean Howard
• Fwd: [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Adam Martin
• [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Ian Hess
• • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Michael Chui
  • • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Ian Hess
  • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Michael Chui
  • • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles cruise
• [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Alistair Riddoch
  • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
  • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Tess Snider
  • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
    • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Lachek Butalek
      • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Tess Snider
      • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
        • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Tess Snider
• The Merits of Text Chat (Was: Importance of emoting) Michael Hartman
• • The Merits of Text Chat (Was: Importance of emoting) Matt Chatterley
• [Design] Alternatives To Advancement Systems (was Food in MMOs) Caliban Darklock
• [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Dana V. Baldwin
• • [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Sean Howard
  • • [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Dana V. Baldwin
• [TECH] Server Side Scripting Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Caliban Darklock
  • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Richard Tew
  • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Ammon Lauritzen
  • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Jeffrey Kesselman