May 2007

• [DESIGN] Developing and balancing a roleplaying system Calvin
• [ADMIN] Bounced Posts? Nick Koranda
• [Offtopic] Lend your ears to science! Mike Rozak
• [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Lachek Butalek
• • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Jacob Cord
  • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Steve "Bloo" Daniels
    • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Damion Schubert
      • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? John Buehler
        • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Damion Schubert
          • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Tess Snider
              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Raph Koster
                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                    • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Raph Koster
                      • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                        • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                                  • [DESIGN} Who to design for? cruise
                                  • [DESIGN} Who to design for? John MacQueen
                              • "The Next Big Thing" (was [DESIGN} Who to design for?) Mike Sellers
                              • • "The Next Big Thing" (was [DESIGN} Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                                • • "The Next Big Thing" (was [DESIGN} Who to design for?) Peter Keeler
                          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Michael Chui
                          • [DESIGN] Who to design for? Michael Hartman
                      • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Damion Schubert
                      • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                  • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Tess Snider
                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? cruise
              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                    • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                      • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                        • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                          • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                            • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Dana V. Baldwin
                              • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                              • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                                • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
                                  • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
                                    • • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
              • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Mike Sellers
            • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Tess Snider
            • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Mike Sellers
              • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Mike Sellers
                  • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                    • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Michael Chui
                  • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Peter Keeler
                  • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Ammon Lauritzen
                    • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Sean Howard
                    • • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Lachek Butalek
                      • [Design] 4Cs (was Who to design for?) Dana V. Baldwin
          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? cruise
          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Sean Howard
          • [DESIGN} Who to design for? Caliban Darklock
        • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Steve "Bloo" Daniels
        • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Caliban Darklock
          • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs cruise
            • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Steve "Bloo" Daniels
  • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Tess Snider
    This is going to sound pretty negative, through the first two-thirds.
    Just bear with me. :)
    
    On 5/14/07, Lachek Butalek <lachek@gmail.com> wrote:
    > After all, we have a pretty good, well established simulation environment of
    > what a virtual worlds should act like - the real world.
    
    I'm not sure I agree with this assertion. If virtual worlds "should
    act like" the real world, why have virtual worlds at all? I've got
    this perfectly good real world here that I don't even have to pay a
    subscription fee for, and man -- I tell you -- it's pretty darn
    realistic. I can even taste the food. Too bad about the permadeath,
    though.
    
    > My theory is that as long as we aim towards absolute realism, our virtual worlds
    > will not be afflicted with symptoms caused by artificiality.
    
    Why play games when you can have death and taxes?
    
    > One example is the roaming "boss" monsters - no more camping a single spot
    > for the boss monster to spawn, because the spawn point is random and the
    > boss roams around the world when present in the game. This is a step in the right
    > direction, IMHO.
    
    A step in the right direction? Do you think people enjoy being
    pointlessly slaughtered by randomly wandering uber-monsters that they
    have no chance of ever defending themselves against, just because they
    commit the grave sin of being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
    
    > My solution to the problem above would be to make player characters so
    > utterly powerless against a "boss" monster that they would be more
    > likely to flee from the spawn point than camp there.
    
    Well, see, the only possible justification I could think of for having
    wandering boss monsters randomly slaughtering players all willy nilly
    was that there was a slim chance that the feeling of triumph they
    would get from eventually vanquishing the thing with their friends
    would *hopefully* compensate for the hours meaningless victimhood that
    had preceded it. But now you're suggesting that it should be almost
    impossible for them to do that, too?
    
    > What is inherently wrong with making player characters more vulnerable
    > and helpless?
    
    The fact that people don't like feeling vulnerable and helpless?
    
    > Will it make the game less fun to play if you don't score
    > a magical weapon after 30 minutes of play? Will it somehow break the
    > fantasy genre mold to have the protagonists be any less than almighty?
    
    Reducing the Monty-Hallism of MMOs does not require making players
    feel "helpless."
    
    > I seriously doubt it. In Tolkien's Lord of the Rings, the Fellowship was
    > made up by the creme de la creme Middle Earth had to offer (and a few
    > hungry Hobbits, too). Even so, Boromir - one of the most mighty fighters
    > - was slain by some orcs by the end of the first book (and he couldn't
    > even run back to his corpse to resurrect!).
    
    Orcs? Ha! I'd like a show of hands of everyone who has never been
    killed by a rat, a barnyard animal, a bird, a frog, a housepet, an
    insect, or something that could otherwise be killed with a good puff
    of industrial strength roach spray. I don't think there's any
    existing shortage of fatal game encounters that make players feel like
    pathetic goobs.
    
    > The traditional fantasy MMO/MUD suffers from inflation from the moment
    > it goes into public beta - possibly before. In a tabletop session of
    > D&D, the player characters are protagonists, with special abilities and
    > skills that sets them apart from the common rabble. They are likely some
    > of the most talented, skilled and all around powerful people in their
    > corner of the world - or they will be right after they reappear from the
    > newbie dungeon. The problem with MMO/MUDs is that there are literally
    > thousands of these Nietzchean Ubermensch in the same province or even
    > city, which is a major game balance and realism problem even before you
    > start taking mudflation into account.
    
    Ah, now, yes. This has pretty much always been a problem with MUDs.
    On AmberMUSH, we used to say "Everyone wants to be the World's
    Greatest Swordsman." The trouble is that nobody wants to play "Civil
    Servant Online" or "Oppressed Peasant Online" or "Barefoot and
    Pregnant For Half Your Life Online." Even in "A Tale in the Desert"
    -- a game where you pick grass and rot camel dung, among other things
    -- the player characters still become larger than life, over time.
    
    That's one of the reasons that we play, I think. I have come to
    accept, on some level, that there are an extraordinary number of
    exceptional people about.. and that, moreover, I'm not going to have a
    very compelling conversation with the robot who grows the wheat to
    make my bread. Even if there's some guy out there who wants to play
    "Wheat Farmer Online," he's not a large enough market to write code
    for him.
    
    > Food.
    
    You'd have caught me totally off-guard with this one, if it hadn't
    been in the subject header.
    
    > Food is consumed at a fantastic rate on a national scale, creating a
    > perfectly realistic "sink" in the economy. Those with access to plenty
    > of food will develop quicker both physically and mentally, and will be
    > less likely to fall ill - a perfect complement stat to XP. If a person
    > didn't have enough food, they would be crippled and unable to fulfill
    > themselves in other ways.
    
    Crippled? I'm not so sure you want to cripple people. Please see my
    earlier post, entitled "Framing and Player Psychology."
    
    > Food supply is an important factor to consider when travelling, as everyone
    > who has played D&D or been on a roadtrip in AZ will know - a factor almost
    > completely unutilized in MMO/MUDs, that nonetheless often feature extensive
    > travelling.
    
    If there's so much travel in the game that you have to worry about
    food, it's too much travel.
    
    > So, there's my RFC. How can food (supply and production) be implemented
    > best in an MMO/MUD, to encourage realism and prevent all the problems
    > associated with inflated stats, while still providing a fun and playable
    > game? What games currently implement food, in what ways, and how
    > successful are they? Are there any major problems with the whole concept
    > of food in an MMO/MUD?
    
    Pretty much, unless I'm playing a strategy game or a sim, I abhor all
    maintenance. Food is maintenance. So, I would say, you'd have to
    find some way to make food *not* maintenance to get me on-board.
    
    Many games use food. In "A Tale in the Desert" and "Star Wars
    Galaxies," it is used for temporary buffs. In "World of Warcraft," it
    is used for faster healing, and sometimes buffs. In "Everquest," back
    when I played it, your character became weak if she didn't eat
    constantly, so you had waste a bag slot carrying around a stupid stack
    of muffins everywhere you went. Buffs are fun. Carrying around
    muffins so you don't get weak is not fun. See, it's all about
    framing. :)
    
    Tess
  • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Lachek Butalek
    • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Chui
      • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Ian Hess
      • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Ian Hess
      • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Tess Snider
      • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Lachek Butalek
        • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Hartman
          • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Kiztent
            • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Jean, Yannick
            • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Hartman
              • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Vincent Archer
                • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Dave Scheffer
          • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Tess Snider
          • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Chui
  • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs John Buehler
  • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Morris Cox
  • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Dana V. Baldwin
    • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Matt Chatterley
      • • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Dana V. Baldwin
        • [Design] [REPOST] Food in MMOs Michael Chui
        • • [Design] Obstacles and Hindrances [was: Food in MMOs & Perma-death] cruise
• [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
• • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Steve "Bloo" Daniels
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Nick Koranda
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Damion Schubert
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
      • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Steve "Bloo" Daniels
        • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Steve "Bloo" Daniels
            • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Tess Snider
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Cory Cohen
    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Matt Chatterley
    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Craig Huber
    • • [JOBS] Areae hiring Raph Koster
    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Phillip Lenhardt
    • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
      • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
      • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Tess Snider
        • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Tess Snider
            • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
              • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dave Scheffer
                • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
                  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dave Scheffer
          • [DESIGN] Perma-death Matt Chatterley
          • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
              • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
              • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
        • [DESIGN] Perma-death Caliban Darklock
        • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
          • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Peter Keeler
            • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
              • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Peter Keeler
                • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
                  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Peter Keeler
                    • [DESIGN] Perma-death Michael Chui
      • [DESIGN] Perma-death Soy weiser
      • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Ammon Lauritzen
        • [DESIGN] Perma-death Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Ammon Lauritzen
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death Dana V. Baldwin
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death John Buehler
  • [DESIGN] Perma-death Hans Häggström
  • • [DESIGN] Perma-death cruise
• [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Adam Martin
• • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Morgan Ramsay
  • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Sean Howard
  • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Adam Martin
    • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Sean Howard
      • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Mike Sellers
        • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Michael Zenke
          • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Sean Howard
          • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Mike Rozak
          • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Mike Sellers
    • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employee interview Caliban Darklock
  • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Mike Rozak
  • • [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Sean Howard
• Fwd: [NEWS] Sigil / Vanguard fallout ... the ex-employeeinterview Adam Martin
• [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Ian Hess
• • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Michael Chui
  • • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Ian Hess
  • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles Michael Chui
  • • [DESIGN] Mechanical support for socializer playstyles cruise
• [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Alistair Riddoch
  • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
  • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Tess Snider
  • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
    • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Lachek Butalek
      • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Tess Snider
      • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Roger D Vargas
        • • [TECH] Creating games with Worldforge Tess Snider
• The Merits of Text Chat (Was: Importance of emoting) Michael Hartman
• • The Merits of Text Chat (Was: Importance of emoting) Matt Chatterley
• [Design] Alternatives To Advancement Systems (was Food in MMOs) Caliban Darklock
• [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Dana V. Baldwin
• • [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Sean Howard
  • • [DESIGN] Essence of a MMO (was 4Cs) Dana V. Baldwin
• [TECH] Server Side Scripting Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Caliban Darklock
  • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Richard Tew
  • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Ammon Lauritzen
  • [TECH] Server Side Scripting Jeffrey Kesselman