April 2007
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Chris Richards
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Amanda Walker
- Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) McDonald, Stephen
- Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) Richard A. Bartle
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Matt Chatterley
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Morgan Ramsay
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Mike Sellers
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Tess Snider
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Damion Schubert
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Lachek Butalek
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Jeffrey Kesselman
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Rewards Dana V. Baldwin
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Paolo Piselli
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards David Love
On Mon, 2007-04-16 at 10:42 -0400, John Buehler wrote:
> > "John Buehler" <johnbue@msn.com> wrote:
>
> As with all participants in Word Wars here, we have distinct contexts in
> which we operate, and the way that various words are wired into our brains
> differ. As a result, Word Wars invariably just go round and round in
> circles. There's just no way to distill concepts to anything more than
> references to other concepts - which are themselves dissimilar. Because of
> that, I pass on trying to debate what the word "reward" should mean.
I've been catching up on old email, so my apologies if I'm retreading
ground that's covered a bit later in the thread.
Since operant conditioning (and the psychology of game design) have
already been brought up, here's a few more definitions (I just yanked
them from Wikipedia - they're pretty accurate, though you'd fine them
much more precisely defined in a psych text, assuming it was a good
one :) ):
* Positive reinforcement is an increase in the likelihood of a
behavior due to the addition of a reinforcer after a behavior.
Giving (or adding) food to a dog for sitting is an example of
positive reinforcement (if this increases the likelihood of the
dog sitting in the future). The behavior of taking illicit drugs
may be reinforced by the feelings of euphoria produced by the
drug.
* Negative reinforcement is an increase in the likelihood of a
behavior when the consequence is the removal of an aversive
stimulus. Turning off (or removing) a shock when a rat presses a
bar is an example of negative reinforcement (if this increases
the likelihood of the rat pressing the bar in the future).
Scratching an itch is another example of negative reinforcement.
* Positive punishment changes the surroundings by adding an
aversive stimulus following a behaviour in order to decrease the
likelihood of the behaviour occurring in the future. An example
would be spanking a child for making a mess.
* Negative punishment changes the surroundings by removing a
stimulus that is a reinforcer. An example would be taking candy
away from a child whenever the child behaves inappropriately.
End of Wikipedia quoting.
Both intrinsic and extrinsic rewards are a form of positive reinforcer
(though you can make a neurological argument that what intrinsic reward
really is involves the release of whatever "neurotransmitter of the
week" is currently the cause of/solution to all of life's problems -
this also helps explain the "intrinsic reward is better than extrinsic
reward" evidence).
Food for thought, especially when considering the "framing" issues
brought up before. Positive reinforcement is not the same as negative
punishment - this can be shown both qualitatively and quantitatively.
Good game designers know this (either experientially, or from study) as
well as knowing about variable reinforcement schedules (I forget who
brought that up, but thanks) - that's why uber l33t loot doesn't always
drop. The game is far more addictive with the variable reinforcement.
As has been mentioned before, things become disruptive when the behavior
the designer thinks that they are reinforcing is different than the
behavior they are actually reinforcing (or punishing). And that's not
just with humans. Talk to any animal trainer and they'll tell you that
they run into the same problem. It's not easy to get it right (and that
may very well be what separates a good game from a great game).
-dlove - [DESIGN] Rewards Johnicholas Hines
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sulka Haro
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] Rewards Adam Martin
- Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
- Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Raph Koster
- Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
- Framing and Player Psychology (was: Importance of emoting) Tess Snider
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops cruise
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Peter Keeler
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops John Buehler
- What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Shannon Sullivan
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven cruise
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Morris Cox
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Chris Richards
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Drivenvs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
- RE : [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Roger D Vargas
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync John Buehler
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Jeffrey Kesselman
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Hudson, Thomas C.
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Lachek Butalek
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Adam Martin
- Whatisagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer