April 2007

• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
        • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) John Buehler
          • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
            • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Chris Richards
                • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
                  • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Amanda Walker
                    • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) McDonald, Stephen
                      • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) Richard A. Bartle
                    • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Matt Chatterley
                • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Morgan Ramsay
              • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dave Scheffer
          • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
    • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Mike Sellers
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Tess Snider
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Damion Schubert
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Sean Howard
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Damion Schubert
        • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Damion Schubert
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Miroslav Silovic
                                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                          On 3/20/07, cruise <cruise@casual-tempest.net> wrote:
                          >
                          > Saying it's so doesn't make it so :P
                          > By your definition, are all single-player "games" actually toys?
                          
                          No, because there is consensus on the rules. Once you enter a cheat
                          code, you introduce a toy to the game, which is destructive.
                          
                          > So getting the cute chick nekkid is part of the game :P She can still
                          > put her clothes back on (or just stop playing) at any time.
                          
                          That's not the point. There are real world consequences to many games.
                          Joe Theismann was playing a game, and was catastrophically injured.
                          That's a real world consequence, but it doesn't mean football isn't a
                          game.
                          
                          > So it's 1): the reward is the motivation.
                          
                          Actually, it's not. The reason I think working out is fun has nothing
                          to do with the progress that I make; it is exclusively about whether I
                          can go that far simply because I want to do it. The only reward is
                          knowing that I did it. I don't like benching 295 because it will make
                          my chest bigger, I like benching 295 because I benched 295.
                          
                          This is actually a great example: when I go to the gym, I am playing a
                          game. Most people aren't. They're trying to get in shape; the gym is a
                          toy to them. Their rules are what they want to look like, and what
                          they want to weigh, and what they want to accomplish. But I play a
                          game - there are people at the gym I recognise, and we challenge each
                          other. The bench press, to us, is not just a toy for enlarging our
                          chests; it's a game where we compete for high score. Of course,
                          there's one guy doing 400+, and the rest of us are playing around in
                          the high 200s and low 300s... but that's okay. He's winning, but we
                          jockey for relative position.
                          
                          > But do both "Toy" and "Game" descend from "Play"?
                          
                          I'm not sure. I've never tried to define "play". If I were to make a
                          cut at it, I'd say "to adopt a system of rules". There may need to be
                          a further qualifier there to differentiate it from other things that
                          have rules. There may not.
                          
                          Mark Twain said it nicely: work consists of what a body is obliged to
                          do, and play consists of what a body is not obliged to do. Volition
                          needs to be in there, I think.
                          
                          > Is "it" the fun, the "game" or the "toy" in that last sentence?
                          
                          The fun. I think it goes in more of a web: "play" descends from a
                          combination of experiential "fun" and a perceived "ruleset". Play by a
                          single individual becomes a "toy", while play by multiple individuals
                          becomes a "game", when a conceptual notion of finality is applied to
                          the ruleset. It gets complicated.
                          
                          I think "play" in its pure form naturally implies a distinct openness
                          to continuing evolution of the ruleset.
                          
                          > Excuse the pedantry, but since I'm trying to get as close as possible to
                          > a formal definition of these terms, precision is important.
                          
                          I entirely agree.
                          
                          > Yet a toy is, by your definition, "a deliberate attempt to induce fun."
                          
                          Without consensus. It is the consensus that makes the "play" into a
                          "game", and when one deviates from consensus, it is destructive to
                          that status.
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Lachek Butalek
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) John Buehler
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
      • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN] Principles vs Rules [was: What is a game?(again)] cruise
        • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
        • • [DESIGN] What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
• • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
  • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
        • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dana V. Baldwin
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
                  • [DESIGN] Rewards Paolo Piselli
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards David Love
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Johnicholas Hines
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sulka Haro
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
              • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
  • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Adam Martin
• Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Raph Koster
  • • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• Framing and Player Psychology (was: Importance of emoting) Tess Snider
• [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops cruise
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Peter Keeler
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
      • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops John Buehler
• What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • What isagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Shannon Sullivan
• • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven cruise
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Morris Cox
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Michael Hartman
    • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Chris Richards
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Drivenvs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
• RE : [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
• [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Tess Snider
  • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Keith Dunwoody
• [TECH] Client time-server time sync Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Client time-server time sync John Buehler
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Hudson, Thomas C.
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Lachek Butalek
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Adam Martin
• Whatisagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer