April 2007

• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
        • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) John Buehler
          • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
            • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Chris Richards
                • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
                  • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Amanda Walker
                    • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) McDonald, Stephen
                      • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) Richard A. Bartle
                    • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Matt Chatterley
                • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Morgan Ramsay
              • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dave Scheffer
          • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
    • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Mike Sellers
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Tess Snider
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Damion Schubert
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Sean Howard
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Damion Schubert
        • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Damion Schubert
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Miroslav Silovic
                                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Lachek Butalek
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) John Buehler
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
      • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN] Principles vs Rules [was: What is a game?(again)] cruise
        • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
        • • [DESIGN] What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
• • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
  • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
            Sean Howard wrote:
            > "Mike Sellers" <mike@onlinealchemy.com> wrote:
            > > You're confusing two different things. Behaviorism as a theory (that
            > > internal cognitive states are irrelevant to psychological inquiry) has
            > > fallen out of favor for very good reasons. But operant conditioning
            > (the
            > > companion to classical or Pavlovian conditioning) is *extremely* useful
            > > and reliable.
            >
            > Operant conditioning... that sounds familiar. I think that's called
            > brainwashing.
            
            No... you're joking, right?
            
            > > As above, the question is do we reward them extrinsically for
            > > fundamentally un-fun behaviors ("oooh, watch me press the 1 key over and
            > > over to 'attack' this thing"), or do we find ways to create situations
            > > and player behaviors that are intrinsically rewarding?
            >
            > There's that word again... "fun". Is that the only kind of rewarding you
            > know? Because I've felt plenty rewarded for simply hanging out with my
            > friends watching bad movies and eating pizza, exploring my neighborhood on
            > foot, or writing an email. Give me a wall and I'll paint on it. Give me a
            > mountain and I'll climb it. Give me a door, and I'll go through it. Give
            > me a friend...
            
            I think perhaps you didn't read what I wrote, or didn't understand it. What
            I described as "un-fun" behaviors are set against those that are
            intrinsically rewarding. Here I'm using intrinsically rewarding in a
            physio-psycho-social sense. Not everyone reacts to the same stimuli or
            situations in exactly the same ways, but there are strong regularities:
            within limits (an important proviso I'm going to leave to the side for now)
            we react positively to colors that are sufficiently bright, to shapes or
            sounds that occur in patterns, to physical movement, to the proximity of
            others, to problems solvable within the span of working memory, and to a
            host of other psychological and social situations. These are the same as
            what you describe in your last few sentences above.
            
            The situations you describe are exemplars of *inherently* rewarding
            activities -- a slight superset of those we can "fun." Activities that are
            not fun can still be rewarding, but the rewards must be extrinsic --
            expressed in points, dollars, ranks, etc. And even these rewards are
            meaningful only because they refer back to an intrinsic basis.
            
            My point in this discussion is that games, and MMOs in particular, have come
            to rely almost exclusively on extrinsic rewards, conflating activities so
            rewarded with those that are *inherently* rewarding, and which thus require
            little or no buttressing with extrinsic rewards.
            
            
            > > To the degree that we can do the latter, we will also reward
            > > various forms of socialization, as humans are inherently motivated by
            > > positive social interactions.
            >
            > Yes, but they don't need to be rewarded for it. The action is its own
            > reward. You could hogtie a group of people, blindfold them, stick them in
            > the dark, and they will STILL find a way to interact with each other. You
            > don't have to reward something that people will dying trying to do anyway.
            
            Exactly my point.
            
            Last week my family went to an amusement park. We rode a bunch of rides,
            some of them several times. There was no external, extrinsic reward for
            doing so -- we did not accumulate points or move up on a leader board or
            something like that. The activity was so inherently rewarding (fulfilling
            physical, psychological, and social motivations) that any such external
            reward would have been superfluous.
            
            How many such activities are found in current MMOs?
            
            Mike Sellers
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
        • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dana V. Baldwin
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
                  • [DESIGN] Rewards Paolo Piselli
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards David Love
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Johnicholas Hines
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sulka Haro
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
              • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
  • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Adam Martin
• Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Raph Koster
  • • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• Framing and Player Psychology (was: Importance of emoting) Tess Snider
• [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops cruise
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Peter Keeler
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
      • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops John Buehler
• What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • What isagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Shannon Sullivan
• • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven cruise
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Morris Cox
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Michael Hartman
    • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Chris Richards
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Drivenvs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
• RE : [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
• [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Tess Snider
  • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Keith Dunwoody
• [TECH] Client time-server time sync Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Client time-server time sync John Buehler
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Hudson, Thomas C.
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Lachek Butalek
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Adam Martin
• Whatisagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer