April 2007
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Chris Richards
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Amanda Walker
- Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) McDonald, Stephen
- Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) Richard A. Bartle
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Matt Chatterley
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Morgan Ramsay
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
- Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Mike Sellers
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Tess Snider
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Damion Schubert
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Vincent Archer
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Lachek Butalek
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Jeffrey Kesselman
- Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Rewards Dana V. Baldwin
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Paolo Piselli
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
Thus spake Raph Koster...
> c) Players will choose to do an unfun thing endlessly if there's a
> reward for it
> d) Players will neglect fun things if it causes them to fall
> behind in a rat race.
"Jeffrey Kesselman" <jeffpk@gmail.com> wrote:
> This is an inertesting and IME very true observation.
>
> The question becomes.... why do they do this?
>
> The first answer is pure competitiveness and I believe this motivates
> some players, but I also believe the motivation is more subtle for
> many if not most.
Actually, it's because of the fundamental failing point of rewards. They
become the motivation, and in doing so, certain aspects of motivation are
replaced or warped.
Let's look at an example:
A man enjoys crafting objects for his friends. He likes the whole part
about gathering the right resources to make the best equipment that is
tailor made for the needs of those he is crafting for.
Now, we introduce a reward. For each object he crafts, he gets a certain
amount of xp. After he achieves enough xp, he learns to craft another
object. To keep with the reward structure, this object is superior to
anything he can currently craft.
Now, his motivation has changed. He wants that new object X to craft,
because the needs of his friends would be better suited by it. There is no
reason for him to craft object A anymore since he knows it will be
replaced by object X as soon as he makes it. He also finds that he can no
longer sell object A anymore, since other crafters are selling X.
Now, the motivation is to get that xp as fast as possible. It's not
competitive. It's about have redundant skills. It's about factoring in the
reward as if he already had it, and how that changes everything. Not
having that reward is actually a PUNISHMENT!
Anyway, to get that reward as quickly as possible, he needs xp. So he
figures out that to maximize his gain with the minimum amount of resources
lost, he needs to craft 400 Ugly Hats. He gets crappy resources because
quality doesn't matter. He doesn't bother to experiment, enhance, or
modify, since those things require more resources for little, if any, xp
gain. So, he crafts 400 Ugly Hats, none of which he can sell because
nobody needs that many Ugly Hats, and even if they did, every other
crafter on his server is grinding too, meaning that there are 4,000,000
Ugly Hats out there. So, he sells them at a loss, since it is easier to
find money than experience.
Ultimately, our crafter finally succeeds. 400 Ugly Hats later, he pings a
new level and can now craft Object X. Yay for him! So he spends a few days
making a few Object Xs and enjoying crafting again... but wait... just
around the corner is another level and Object Y, which is even better than
Object X!!!
It's a vicious cycle, and ultimately, all it does is create a situation
where the only crafters having fun are the max level crafters who don't
have to worry about xp anymore. Though they still need lots of cash
because the Giant Squirrel boss in the instanced dungeon The Happy Woods
has a 0.0012% chance of dropping one of ten Giant Squirrel armor
schematics, which are even better than Object Z! So, instead of crafting
what people need, he crafts the objects with the highest profit (minimal
resources, expendable, over powered) which means that even at the highest
levels, you still don't have an even spread of top level gear available.
All the crafters still are only crafting the same ten objects.
Now, you could look at this and see competitiveness, but I think it is
more a case of minmaxing. This crafter isn't trying to be better than
anyone else. He is just trying to have all the tools he might need at the
time when he will need them. It's a security issue. A crafter at level 4
is not going to be as secure a crafter as a level 751 - to become secure
is completely beyond his capabilities as a player and a person. Instead,
the only way he can have more well rounded skills that actually mean
anything is to be level 751 too.
The reason why combat is usually not as bad as crafting is because there
is content for your level that doesn't require having superior skills, and
the act of combat is usually framed within the context of exploration,
puzzle solving, collection, and socialization (questing). I argue that if
you properly designed the combat portion of the game, you wouldn't even
need to give out rewards. If you don't have experience points, you don't
need anything that makes you get experience points faster.
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Communism won't work in the
real world, but I think it will make a superior MMORPG. No dangling
rewards. No punishments. No levels. No experience points. No money. Every
possibility available to every player. Every player is just like every
other player as far as gameplay is concerned. No groups. No guilds. And
there is no competition, just cooperation.
> And thats a very strong motivator.
But it's the wrong KIND of motivation.
--
Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
- [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards David Love
- [DESIGN] Rewards Johnicholas Hines
- [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sulka Haro
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
- [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
- [DESIGN] Rewards Adam Martin
- Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
- Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Raph Koster
- Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
- Framing and Player Psychology (was: Importance of emoting) Tess Snider
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops cruise
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Peter Keeler
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
- [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops John Buehler
- What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
- What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
- What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Shannon Sullivan
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven cruise
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Morris Cox
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Michael Hartman
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Chris Richards
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven John Buehler
- [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Drivenvs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
- RE : [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
- [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Roger D Vargas
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync John Buehler
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Jeffrey Kesselman
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Hudson, Thomas C.
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Lachek Butalek
- [TECH] Client time-server time sync Adam Martin
- Whatisagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer