April 2007

• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
        • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) John Buehler
          • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
            • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Chris Richards
                • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
                  • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Amanda Walker
                    • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) McDonald, Stephen
                      • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) Richard A. Bartle
                    • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Matt Chatterley
                • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Morgan Ramsay
              • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dave Scheffer
          • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
    • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Mike Sellers
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Tess Snider
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Damion Schubert
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Sean Howard
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Damion Schubert
        • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Damion Schubert
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Miroslav Silovic
                                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Lachek Butalek
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) John Buehler
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
      • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN] Principles vs Rules [was: What is a game?(again)] cruise
        • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
        • • [DESIGN] What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
• • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
  • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          Mike Sellers writes:
          
          > > Thus spake John Buehler...
          > > > Right now, games seem to focus on one type of "reward": recognizeable
          > > > personal achievement. That is a viable "inherently enjoyable" form
          > > > of entertainment for a lot of people.
          >
          > Just to be clear here, what most games reward is the *appearance* of
          > personal achievement within the game world. This is not at all the same
          > thing as intrinsic personal achievement, though most of us have
          > been lulled into conflating the two. There is some skill in getting to
          > level 60 or whatever, and thus some inherent reward for doing so. But
          > the vast bulk of the rewards for this are extrinsic in the form of points,
          > loot, mounts, etc.
          > The reward is not the journey in most MMOGs, but the destination. The
          > grind is the journey, and very few consider it to be its own reward.
          
          Heh. No confusion here, except when playing. Having pushed the button
          morethan a few times for my pellets, I can well imagine that the reason
          we keepdoing it is a desire for some intrinsic sense of achievement.
          We've gotsomething that feels like it in the extrinsic sense, so that
          intrinsic senseshould be along any moment. Right? Any moment. Here it
          comes. Any timenow. One more button press.
          
          I might venture to claim that the more obsessive players are
          desperatelytrying to make the transition from extrinsic to intrinsic.
          The games movethem in that direction, but can never go any farther than
          what is aprimarily extrinsic reward.
          
          > > > The population of current games
          > > > demonstrates that. So people ARE involved in an inherently enjoyable
          > > > experience right now. Unfortunately, what designers have done is to
          > > > make every variation of gameplay the same thing; they're all focused
          > > > on recognizeable personal achievement.
          >
          > You're right that we're far too focused on the (young western
          > male) ideal of personal achievement. But again, there are far more
          > people who turn up their noses at this narrow definition of fun orreward
          > than who put their time into it (far more who are playing other games
          > that do not have this focus, much less those who play no computer games
          > at all). And that people are playing these achievement-reward games
          > does *not* mean that the activities are inherently rewarding or
          > enjoyable.
          
          No argument at all.
          
          > > > Much of the griping about the treadmill and so on is that players who
          > > > are hoping for other "inherently enjoyable" activities are
          > > > finding the trappings of what they are hoping for (crafting,
          > > > questing, exploring), only to find that the activities themselves
          > > > are rooted in "recognizeable personal achievement". The challenge
          > > > to the gaming industry is to figure out what is "inherently
          > > > enjoyable" about stamp collecting and work that into the game.
          > > > Or juggling, or making beer - or even engaging in medieval combat.
          > >
          > > It is ironic, is it not, that all the achiever/killer ends up getting is
          > > a social reward - personal recognition.
          >
          > Not ironic at all: this is the thread of intrinsic reward from
          > which all the extrinsic ones hang. If there is no intrinsic reward
          > (security, social, skill, contribution) then the extrinsic ones are as
          > meaningless as ashes (ask yourself what your main WoW character's uber
          > set of purple armor *means* to you if there was never anyone else around
          > to see it).
          
          I'm right there with you, so long as you mean "personal recognition is
          theintrinsic reward from which all the extrinsic rewards *of current
          games*hang." Certainly personal recognition is not the intrinsic
          cornerstone ofbeing human.
          
          JB
        • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dana V. Baldwin
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
                  • [DESIGN] Rewards Paolo Piselli
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards David Love
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Johnicholas Hines
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sulka Haro
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
              • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
  • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Adam Martin
• Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Raph Koster
  • • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• Framing and Player Psychology (was: Importance of emoting) Tess Snider
• [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops cruise
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Peter Keeler
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
      • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops John Buehler
• What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • What isagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Shannon Sullivan
• • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven cruise
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Morris Cox
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Michael Hartman
    • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Chris Richards
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Drivenvs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
• RE : [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
• [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Tess Snider
  • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Keith Dunwoody
• [TECH] Client time-server time sync Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Client time-server time sync John Buehler
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Hudson, Thomas C.
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Lachek Butalek
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Adam Martin
• Whatisagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer