April 2007

• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
        • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) John Buehler
          • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
            • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Chris Richards
                • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
                  • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Amanda Walker
                    • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) McDonald, Stephen
                      • • Importance of emoting (Was:ArantagainstVanguardreviewsand rants) Richard A. Bartle
                    • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Matt Chatterley
                • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Morgan Ramsay
              • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
              • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dave Scheffer
          • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
    • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • Importance of emoting (Was: A rantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) John Buehler
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: ArantagainstVanguardreviews and rants) Richard A. Bartle
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Mike Sellers
• • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Tess Snider
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Tess Snider
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Damion Schubert
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Mike Sellers
  • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
  • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguardreviews and rants) Sean Howard
    • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Raph Koster
      • • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Damion Schubert
        • Importance of emoting (Was: A rant againstVanguardreviews and rants) Michael Hartman
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) Dana V. Baldwin
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Damion Schubert
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Raph Koster
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Vincent Archer
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
          • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
            • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] Caliban Darklock
              • • [DESIGN] Consensus and control [was: What is a game? (again)] cruise
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
                              • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Miroslav Silovic
                                  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                                    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Morris Cox
                                • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                      • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
                        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
                          • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
            • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Lachek Butalek
            • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
• Importance of emoting (Was: A rant against Vanguard reviews and rants) John Buehler
• [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
• • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellent commentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Sean Howard
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] What is agame? (again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
      • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentaryon Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN] Principles vs Rules [was: What is a game?(again)] cruise
        • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Caliban Darklock
        • • [DESIGN] What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again) was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
    • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Hideto Koudanshi
        • • [DESIGN] What is a game? (again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
          • [DESIGN] What is a game?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
• • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
  • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
          "Mike Sellers" <mike@onlinealchemy.com> wrote:
          > You're confusing two different things. Behaviorism as a theory (that
          > internal cognitive states are irrelevant to psychological inquiry) has
          > fallen out of favor for very good reasons. But operant conditioning (the
          > companion to classical or Pavlovian conditioning) is *extremely* useful
          > and reliable.
          
          Operant conditioning... that sounds familiar. I think that's called
          brainwashing.
          
          > I disagree completely with the idea that rewards should never be used as
          > a social control mechanism: much of our real-world government is based on
          > rewarding behavior that is seen as socially useful, and in games we know
          > well that *people do what we reward them for.*
          
          But the effects of which have never properly been studied because we just
          buy into the idea wholesale without ever questioning it. I read an example
          of some elementary school in Switzerland (or somewhere not in the US)
          where they enacted a token system. Behave and you get a token, which are
          redeemable for toys, extra recess time, and whatever. It was eventually
          revoked because it instilled a mercenary attitude amongst the children.
          
          The moment you introduce a social control mechanism like that, you
          instantly allow any behavior that is not included by that mechanism. If
          tokens are all that matters, then philosophical or moralistic reasoning
          goes away.
          
          Yes, people do what we reward them for, but this is obviously not the best
          solution. Can anyone argue that the corporate world is a better place
          after becoming a glorified Skinner Box? Yes, people will work weekends for
          a bonus, but should they have to? Are their lives better because of it? Is
          the product better because of it? EVERYTHING I have ever read or
          experienced in the game industry says that the worker suffers, the product
          suffers, the company suffers. We like to wrap up the negative impacts of
          this kind of crap as "morale", but it is far deeper and more complicated
          than that - which is why our solutions to offer MORE incentives always
          backfire.
          
          
          > As above, the question is do we reward them extrinsically for
          > fundamentally un-fun behaviors ("oooh, watch me press the 1 key over and
          > over to 'attack' this thing"), or do we find ways to create situations
          > and player behaviors that are intrinsically rewarding?
          
          There's that word again... "fun". Is that the only kind of rewarding you
          know? Because I've felt plenty rewarded for simply hanging out with my
          friends watching bad movies and eating pizza, exploring my neighborhood on
          foot, or writing an email. Give me a wall and I'll paint on it. Give me a
          mountain and I'll climb it. Give me a door, and I'll go through it. Give
          me a friend...
          
          The designer doesn't have to make these things "fun". In fact, any effort
          to do so will fundamentally unbalance the nature of what makes these
          things rewarding in the first place.
          
          > To the degree that we can do the latter, we will also reward
          > various forms of socialization, as humans are inherently motivated by
          > positive social interactions.
          
          Yes, but they don't need to be rewarded for it. The action is its own
          reward. You could hogtie a group of people, blindfold them, stick them in
          the dark, and they will STILL find a way to interact with each other. You
          don't have to reward something that people will dying trying to do anyway.
          It's redundant and it creates a situation where you only reward PART of
          the socialization process. You reward communicating with other players,
          but not what the communication is. You reward the act of fighting in a
          group, but not the quality of that group. In other words, you are
          rewarding - no, enforcing - only the most shallow understanding of these
          things and then standing around slackjawed wondering why all the people in
          your game are jerks. Perhaps worse, you accept it as inevitable.
          
          --
          Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
        • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dana V. Baldwin
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
                  • [DESIGN] Rewards Paolo Piselli
          • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Jeffrey Kesselman
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Mike Sellers
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards cruise
        • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
    • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
    • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
            • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • [DESIGN] Rewards David Love
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Johnicholas Hines
      • [DESIGN] Rewards Raph Koster
      • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
        • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
          • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
            • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sulka Haro
              • • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
                • • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
              • [DESIGN] Rewards Michael Hartman
  • [DESIGN] Rewards John Buehler
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Sean Howard
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Caliban Darklock
  • [DESIGN] Rewards Adam Martin
• Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Raph Koster
  • • Downtime & SWG (Was: Importance of emoting) Sean Howard
• Framing and Player Psychology (was: Importance of emoting) Tess Snider
• [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops cruise
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Peter Keeler
  • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
    • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
      • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Dave Scheffer
        • • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
    • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [DESIGN/OPERATION] A rant about NPC ops John Buehler
• What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
    • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
    • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] cruise
      • • What isagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
  • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary on Vanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer
  • • What is agame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] John Buehler
• [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Shannon Sullivan
• • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven cruise
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Morris Cox
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Michael Hartman
    • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs. Demand-Driven Chris Richards
  • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Driven vs.Demand-Driven John Buehler
  • • [DESIGN] Crafting Systems: Supply-Drivenvs.Demand-Driven Dave Scheffer
• RE : [DESIGN] Rewards Jean, Yannick
• [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
• • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Tess Snider
  • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Jeffrey Kesselman
    • • [DESIGN] Is photorealism the goal? ( was Ray traced environments) Keith Dunwoody
• [TECH] Client time-server time sync Roger D Vargas
• • [TECH] Client time-server time sync John Buehler
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Jeffrey Kesselman
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Hudson, Thomas C.
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Lachek Butalek
  • [TECH] Client time-server time sync Adam Martin
• Whatisagame?(again)was:[Excellentcommentary onVanguard's diplomacy system] Dave Scheffer