June 2005
- Development and Live Team Dynamics Chris Richards
- Development and Live Team Dynamics Koster, Raph
- (no subject) Unknown
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from -Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? John Buehler
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? HRose
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise@casual-tempest.net
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Damien Neil
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] John Buehler
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Yggdrasil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle II Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Paolo Piselli
--- "Richard A. Bartle" <richard@mud.co.uk> wrote:
> On 29 July 2005, Paolo Piselli wrote:
>> Why are we still arguing Bartle's Types when Nick Yee is doing
>> such wonderful empirical research?
> Because there's no theory behind Nick Yee's work. What use is it
> knowing that people do this or do that if you don't know WHY they
> do this or do that?
> To be fair, Nick doesn't claim he has a theory. He presents his
> work so that others may use it to create theories.
It is not important wether or not his work presents a full theory of
player motivation. Your work and his are laying the groundwork for
how we will quantify player behavior and player motivation. IMO
your research is helping us distinguish between "this" and "that" so
that in the future we may investigate "why".
> Personally, I don't think Nick's results do invalidate mine; I see
> them as supporting it.
I agree with this, and I think that Nick has overstated the
differences between your work in his articles.
>> Your statement is contrary to the evidence: "Achieving and
>> Competing: While Bartle proposed that Achievers and Griefers were
>> separate Types, they are in fact fairly correlated with each
>> other.
> If you want to change the definition of "achievers" and
> "griefers", yes. Also, if you want to use the 1995 4-type model
> rather than the 2003 8-type model, maybe.
> Just think for a moment what this result is actually saying. It's
> saying that most people who are achievers are also griefers. Now
> in your experience in playing these games, can you honestly say
> that most people you've met who are achievers are also griefers?
> If this were indeed the case, why would anyone ever make a
> distinction between grief play and achievement play? I didn't
> invent the term "grief play", the players did, yet how many of
> them regard "griefer" as a synonym of "achiever"? Given the
> reported correlation, though, griefers and achievers should be one
> and the same thing.
I think this issue can get semantically confusing, because words
like "achievement" and "greif" can be used to describe both
motivations and behaviors. Certainly achievement-play and greif-play
are different behaviors, but it is possible that both are derived
from the same motivation. As you mention in your won work, the
association could come from the fact that it is easier to greif
people if you are more powerful, therefore greifers engage in
achievement-play as a step along the path to their ultimate goal of
engaging in greif-play. It is also possible that different
motivations result in the same behavior. I think we need a better
semantic separation of player motivations and player behaviors.
>> On limitations of Bartle's model:
> This is in part a misunderstanding of the model. My model does not
> say that you can't like pizza if you like ice cream;
Yes, I never understood why Nick claims that you put players into
separate boxes when your tests give them a score with respect to
each type.
>> Nick's work should pretty much be considered required reading for
>> discussions of player motivations.
> I agree, but if you're going to cite it I want to see what you're
> going to use it for. How do you use it, as it stands, to help you
> design better virtual worlds?
This type of reseach can be used to plan and design gameplay that
facilitates engagement in associated behaviors. For instance, if
achievement and cometition are associated, then design gameplay
where a player can both achieve and compete (such as WoW's ranked
PvP system). Or on teh lip side, if greif play is strongly
associated with escapism and time spent online, then perhaps a
design that reduces immersion (what!?) and discourages long play
sessions (sacrilege!) would actually repel players who like to
engage in greif play (holy grail!!).
> Some general problems with Nick's approach (which Nick
> acknowledges, but some of those who follow his work seem blind
> to):
> - The motivations suggested are implicit in the > questions.
This is a good criticism. But I do not know how to separate
questions that treat behaviors and motivations. Asking a player
what they do is simple, but asking them to explain why they do
things is asking for a great deal of self-awareness.
> - Brainstorming motivations from correlations is > as subjective
> as brainstorming player types from interviews.
Yes, I'm guilty as charged. But its fun to wonder at, and maybe I
can someday work it into a dissertation :)
> - There's no guarantee that there are 5 facets, > just that
> there are at least 5 facets.
> - There's no guarantee that the facets are at the > same degree
> of abstraction. It could be like "penguin, eagle, > vulture,
> mammal".
> - The labelling of the facets isn't provided by > the factor
> analysis.
> - Some facets overlap but some don't. Leadership > could be an
> expression of an achievement, grief or > relationship facet, but
> it couldn't be an expression of the immersion facet - > that's
> completely orthogonal.
Orthogonality is a big problem. If player behavior arises from a
network of motivations that are interrelated, how will we ever make
cuts at the right level of abstraction?
> For a fairly recent and fairly detailed discussion, see
> http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/03/daedalus_projec.html
Wow, I should have read the comments attached to this article back
in March! Great posts.
-Paolo
Paolo Piselli
ppiselli@yahoo.com
www.piselli.com - DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- DGN: Reasons for play cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play Russ Whiteman
- DGN: Reasons for play Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Paolo Piselli
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Jaycen Rigger
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Ren Reynolds
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Max Battcher
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Oliver Smith
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawned from...] Mike Rozak
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Jeff Bachtel
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damion Schubert
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Jaycen Rigger
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Sean Howard
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Damion Schubert
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] P J
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Amanda Walker
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- SOC: Will company sanctioned cheating hurt the MMO community? Darkwolf
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Vincent Archer
- (no subject) Unknown
- Re: Morris Cox
- BIZ: Customer Acquisition Costs in MMOs Vladimir Cole
- Castle Marrach Comic released under Creative Commons Christopher Allen
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions James Turner
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions Scott Jennings
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions ceo
- Hosting questions Kwon J. Ekstrom
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- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) erik
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Michael Chui
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Richard A. Bartle
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) William Leader
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Erik Bethke
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) William Leader
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Jaycen Rigger
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Eli Stevens (WG.c)
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Akiba Liebskind
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Matt Chatterley
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) David Love
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Damien Neil
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Hulbert, Leland
- Attack System Dhiego Ramos
- Attack System Tiago Carita
- Attack System Damion Schubert
- Attack System Tess Snider
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- Attack System Dhiego Ramos
- Attack System Matt Chatterley
- Hosting questions Frederick Nacino
- Hosting questions ceo