June 2005
- Development and Live Team Dynamics Chris Richards
- Development and Live Team Dynamics Koster, Raph
- (no subject) Unknown
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from -Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? John Buehler
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? HRose
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise@casual-tempest.net
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Damien Neil
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] John Buehler
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Yggdrasil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle II Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
On 29 July 2005, Paolo Piselli wrote:
> Why are we still arguing Bartle's Types when Nick Yee is doing
> such wonderful empirical research?
Because there's no theory behind Nick Yee's work. What use is it
knowing that people do this or do that if you don't know WHY they do
this or do that?
To be fair, Nick doesn't claim he has a theory. He presents his work
so that others may use it to create theories.
Personally, I don't think Nick's results do invalidate mine; I see
them as supporting it.
> Your statement is contrary to the evidence: "Achieving and
> Competing: While Bartle proposed that Achievers and Griefers were
> separate Types, they are in fact fairly correlated with each
> other.
If you want to change the definition of "achievers" and "griefers",
yes. Also, if you want to use the 1995 4-type model rather than the
2003 8-type model, maybe.
Just think for a moment what this result is actually saying. It's
saying that most people who are achievers are also griefers. Now in
your experience in playing these games, can you honestly say that
most people you've met who are achievers are also griefers? If this
were indeed the case, why would anyone ever make a distinction
between grief play and achievement play? I didn't invent the term
"grief play", the players did, yet how many of them regard "griefer"
as a synonym of "achiever"? Given the reported correlation, though,
griefers and achievers should be one and the same thing.
> On limitations of Bartle's model:
This is in part a misunderstanding of the model. My model does not
say that you can't like pizza if you like ice cream; what my model
says is that if you're going for pizza, you might stop on the way
and have an ice cream, but you're still going for pizza. People have
an underlying reason for playing, but they're transitioning. If
you're a (planner sub-type) achiever, then prior to that you were
either a (scientist sub-type) explorer or a (socialiser sub-type)
networker, and following it you'll be a (hacker sub-type) explorer
or a (friend sub-type) socialiser. As you're becoming an achiever,
you'll still be doing a lot of exploring, and when you've become one
you'll start doing some socialising. Eventually, your motivation
will change to that associated with the class that follows.
> Nick's work should pretty much be considered required reading for
> discussions of player motivations.
I agree, but if you're going to cite it I want to see what you're
going to use it for. How do you use it, as it stands, to help you
design better virtual worlds?
Some general problems with Nick's approach (which Nick acknowledges,
but some of those who follow his work seem blind to):
- The motivations suggested are implicit in the questions.
- Brainstorming motivations from correlations is as subjective as
brainstorming player types from interviews.
- There's no guarantee that there are 5 facets, just that there
are at least 5 facets.
- There's no guarantee that the facets are at the same degree of
abstraction. It could be like "penguin, eagle, vulture, mammal".
- The labelling of the facets isn't provided by the factor
analysis.
- Some facets overlap but some don't. Leadership could be an
expression of an achievement, grief or relationship facet, but it
couldn't be an expression of the immersion facet - that's
completely orthogonal.
My own theory isn't perfect. For example, it doesn't yet say what
happens when people break off from the development path they're
following. Also, it's limited: it only accounts for people who are
playing the game, not those who are researching it or farming it or
managing it or think it's a different kind of game altogether. It
also assumes it's a game. I look forward to the day that someone
comes up with a better theory. Nick Yee's research may form the
basis for that theory, but they show correlations, not
causality. When someone comes up with some causality, THEN you can
argue that we have a competing theory to my player types one.
Nick and I have discussed the differences between our approaches
many times. The only real sticking point is that Nick tends towards
feeling that the evidence he has collected does not support my
player types theory, whereas I tend towards thinking it does.
For a fairly recent and fairly detailed discussion, see
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2005/03/daedalus_projec.html .
Richard - DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- DGN: Reasons for play cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play Russ Whiteman
- DGN: Reasons for play Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play Sean Howard
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Jaycen Rigger
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Ren Reynolds
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Max Battcher
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Oliver Smith
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawned from...] Mike Rozak
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Jeff Bachtel
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damion Schubert
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Jaycen Rigger
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Sean Howard
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Damion Schubert
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] P J
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Amanda Walker
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- SOC: Will company sanctioned cheating hurt the MMO community? Darkwolf
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Vincent Archer
- (no subject) Unknown
- Re: Morris Cox
- BIZ: Customer Acquisition Costs in MMOs Vladimir Cole
- Castle Marrach Comic released under Creative Commons Christopher Allen
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions James Turner
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions Scott Jennings
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions ceo
- Hosting questions Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Hosting questions ceo
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) erik
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Michael Chui
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Richard A. Bartle
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) William Leader
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Erik Bethke
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) William Leader
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Jaycen Rigger
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Eli Stevens (WG.c)
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Akiba Liebskind
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Matt Chatterley
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) David Love
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Damien Neil
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Hulbert, Leland
- Attack System Dhiego Ramos
- Attack System Tiago Carita
- Attack System Damion Schubert
- Attack System Tess Snider
- Attack System Tony Hoyt
- Attack System Dhiego Ramos
- Attack System Matt Chatterley
- Hosting questions Frederick Nacino
- Hosting questions ceo