June 2005
- Development and Live Team Dynamics Chris Richards
- Development and Live Team Dynamics Koster, Raph
- (no subject) Unknown
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from -Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? John Buehler
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? HRose
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise@casual-tempest.net
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Damien Neil
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] John Buehler
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Yggdrasil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
"Damien Neil" <damien.neil@gmail.com> wrote :
> I would argue that Bartle's classifications are useful precisely
> because they describe behavior.
But it isn't a good enough abstraction to replace real data. For
instance, using some simple and available tools, I can tell you the
exact statistical make up of character race and class for World of
Warcraft - as well as level ranges and all sorts of fancy stuff like
that. There are features which track your character completely, down
to how many seconds each level is taking you, how long you spend in
combat, and so on.
Being a mostly achiever/killer doesn't tell you anything except how
you spend SOME of your time online - data which isn't useful except
when taken from a large body of people. Bartle Types are an
unneccessary intermediate step that hides details without providing
any additional insight. It actually makes me angry when I hear
MMORPG designers quote those types as rationale for their design
decisions.
> And any system which attempts to strictly classify people is
> certain to be a failure--we are analogue beings, irrational and
> inconstant.
I have a game idea in my head right now that is unlike anything else
on the market. How do I know it will be any good without doing a
prototype? How do I know what kind of people would enjoy it? How do
I know how deep the system is without the details spelled out? I
just know, and chances are, faced with a similar idea of your own,
you would too.
The purpose of temperments isn't to pigeonhole a person's
individuality, but to put into logic that which we already know to
be true, but can't put into words. If I see a movie, I would have a
good idea of whether or not my friends would like it - putting the
why down on paper is the tricky part.
> Bartle's classifications well predate MMORPGs, and are based on
> observation of behavior in a variety of styles of MUDs. While
> it's certainly possible that player behavior in an entirely new
> form of game will best be described by a different set of
> classifications, the achiever/explorer/socializer/killer patterns
> can be observed in social worlds like PernMUSH, achievement
> treadmills like EverQuest, and newer innovations like ATITD or
> Puzzle Pirates.
But that's just it, isn't it? I mean, a completely social, building
organization like a MUSH is very different than a controlled theme
park like World of Warcraft - killers don't apply in the first and
socializers don't apply in the second. The problem is, the same type
of people will be playing this game - without the means to exercise
their decision making preferences in one way, they'll find another.
For instance, achievers and killers are essentially the same type of
people, though they choose different activities based on what they
self esteem needs. Achieving can be a personal, introspective thing
that has value even when nobody else is around, and achieving can be
a competitive, extrospective thing that only has value when others
acknowledge it. This isn't even socialization - this is how internal
or external someone's self esteem is.
Bartle's Types really only describe one type of player, playing in
different ways. At the time they were created, only people who
would've been familiar with computers would've been included, so
they lack the fundamental understanding of people who weren't
comfortable with technology. It doesn't deal with aspects of
intelligence, decision making, socialization, or value that exist
unmentioned both in significant and insignificant portions of the
population. Those types don't describe me or my wife at all - we can
cram into one definition or another because they are so broadly
defined, but it's not true or honest.
> Naive attempts to provide content to cater to the different
> categories usually miss the mark.
And you blame the designers, rather than the categories?
> I think that attempts to "address an audience" are doomed to
> failure. The true successes are driven by the passion of the
> designer, not a cold, calculating manipulation of the player.
I disagree. Naive attempts at either usually miss the mark.
I could design a game to specific audience as easily as I could
design a spice rack to hold my plethora of tasty, tasty spices - and
I could be just as passionate about the experience (if not more)
than anybody could ever be about anything. You don't have to create
something personal for it to be a "true success driven by the
passion of the designer". For some people, like myself, the
challenge and enjoyment isn't in what you create, but how.
- Sean Howard
www.squidi.net - DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle II Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawnedfrom...] Richard A. Bartle
- DGN: Reasons for play cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play Paolo Piselli
- DGN: Reasons for play cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play Russ Whiteman
- DGN: Reasons for play Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play Sean Howard
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Jaycen Rigger
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Ren Reynolds
- SOC: Yee vs. Bartle Amanda Walker
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Max Battcher
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] Oliver Smith
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviorsspawned from...] Mike Rozak
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] lwl@black-knight.org (Lydia Leong)
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Sellers
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] cruise
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Jeff Bachtel
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Sean Howard
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damion Schubert
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Michael Hartman
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Jaycen Rigger
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Sean Howard
- SOC/DGN: Enforcing Socially Acceptable Behavior Damion Schubert
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawnedfrom...] Damien Neil
- DGN: Reasons for play [was: Emergent Behaviors spawned from...] P J
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Jaycen Rigger
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Amanda Walker
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? cruise
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- SOC: Will company sanctioned cheating hurt the MMO community? Darkwolf
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Michael Hartman
- DGN: Emergent Behaviors spawned from - Re: [MUD-Dev]SOC:Willcompany sanctioned cheating hurt theMMOcommunity? Vincent Archer
- (no subject) Unknown
- Re: Morris Cox
- BIZ: Customer Acquisition Costs in MMOs Vladimir Cole
- Castle Marrach Comic released under Creative Commons Christopher Allen
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions James Turner
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions Scott Jennings
- Hosting questions Mike Rozak
- Hosting questions ceo
- Hosting questions Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Hosting questions ceo
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) erik
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Michael Chui
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Richard A. Bartle
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) William Leader
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Erik Bethke
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) William Leader
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Jaycen Rigger
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Eli Stevens (WG.c)
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Akiba Liebskind
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Matt Chatterley
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) David Love
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Damien Neil
- Looking for a Magic System (inspired by Bartle's book) Hulbert, Leland
- Attack System Dhiego Ramos
- Attack System Tiago Carita
- Attack System Damion Schubert
- Attack System Tess Snider
- Attack System Tony Hoyt
- Attack System Dhiego Ramos
- Attack System Matt Chatterley
- Hosting questions Frederick Nacino
- Hosting questions ceo