January 2005
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- [SPAM] DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs? Dana V. Baldwin
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) John Buehler
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) John Buehler
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) John Buehler
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Wayne Witzke
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Corey Cauble
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) HRose
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) cruise
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) Michael Sellers
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) P J
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) cruise
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) John Buehler
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) cruise
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) John Buehler
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) cruise
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) John Buehler
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) Ling Lo
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) HRose
- Homogeneity and choice Eric Random
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Koster, Raph
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Damion Schubert
- Wish cancelled... Eric Scholten
- New job...Alternate Reality Games Adam
- Wish cancelled... Artur Biesiadowski
- MMORPG Cancellations of the past 2 Years Michael Hartman
- MMORPG Cancellations of the past 2 Years Mike Rozak
- ***SPAM*** Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Miroslav Silovic
- [Media] A WoW stats web site Mike Rozak
- [Media] A WoW stats web site Zak Jensen
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Tom Hunter
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Amanda Walker
- weapon choices Matthew D. Fuller
- weapon choices Tom Hunter
- weapon choices cruise
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do peoplelikeweather in MMORPGs?) Matt Mihaly
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Douglas Goodall
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play olag@ifi.uio.no
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play ceo
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play olag@ifi.uio.no
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Mike Oxford
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Johan A
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play olag@ifi.uio.no
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Vincent Archer
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Johan A
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play cruise
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Johan A
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Damion Schubert
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play cruise
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Zach Collins (Siege)
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Douglas Goodall
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Miroslav Silovic
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Michael Hartman
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Mike Shaver
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Vincent Archer
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Michael Hartman
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Paul Schwanz
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Bart Simon
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Jon Mayo
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Byron Ellacott
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy David Kennerly
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Paul Schwanz
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy David Kennerly
Paul Schwanz wrote:
> David Kennerly wrote:
>> Yes. There are two problems with quests that change the world:
>> 1) No one completes the quest, so the world does not change.
>> 2) Someone does complete the quest, so the world does
>> change.
>> Okay, so there's only one problem. :)
>> When the world changes, what happens to the quests that only made
>> sense when the world was in its previous state? In computer
>> science lingo, if Quest B has precondition X, then if Quest A
>> changes the state of the world to condition Y, then Quest B
>> cannot fulfill its function. Since writing a quest is labor
>> intensive, it's a nontrivial dilemma. When the state of the
>> world changes, what benefit offsets the labor cost of replacing
>> the newly-invalidated set of quests?
> If you make the world state mutable enough, then I'm not sure I
> see the problem here. Think of it this way, when undertaking
> quest B with the world state at condition Y, you could get two
> quests for the price of one by having a quest C that has the
> ability to change the world state from Y to X. Taken to its
> logical conclusion, the play moves away from being about static
> quests and toward managing world states. Perhaps this is what a
> previous poster meant by removing quests altogether. Personally,
> I think this could be a lot of fun, especially when some sort of
> community cooperation is required in order to change more global
> world states.
I see. A single-sided game of capture the flag follows this model.
For example of a quest scenario, a sorcerer has a magical staff. A
ranger quest offers a reward to steal the magic staff. A paladin
quest offers a reward to return (steal back) the magic staff. In
terms of developer labor, this means that at least two quests must
be written. In terms of playable content, only one of these quests
is available at any given time.
Compare this to two quests that do not change the state of the
world. Revise the above example, so that there is a trivial
difference: in the second quest, change the magical staff into a
magical spear. Now it is stealing between two rivals without a
toggled state of the world. The cost in terms of developer labor is
equal to or less than toggling the state of the world. In addition,
the content available is two quests at any given time instead of
one.
However, this cost/content ratio is a naive analysis. What must be
taken into account is the amount of enjoyment that has been produced
from having this simple finite state automaton with two states: not
stolen and stolen. Each quest, then, may be represented as an arc
between the two vertices of the states of the world. I suspect a
clever implementation of this could justify the additional
cost/content ratio.
Still, maintenance costs from dependencies must be accounted.
Quests do not exist in a vacuum. The more interesting quests are
interdependent, such as the story arcs in City of Heroes, the series
in World of Warcraft, or the similar progression of quests in Final
Fantasy XI. By a story arc, I mean a set of interdependent
missions. Thus, a modification to one of these missions (or
quests--same thing), means that all dependent missions must be
updated.
This updating adds additional developer cost, including a higher
operating cost. Each additional change requires changing the
dependencies. The asymptotic order of growth for a function that
describes this overhead cost will be worse than linear, probably
polynomial. If dependencies of the storylines are not partitioned,
the overhead could become exponential. Unlike programmed code,
written narratives are rarely object-oriented.
I don't mean to smash dreams; I think there are clever solutions to
this problem too. The solution depends on the details of the theme,
story, and quests involved. I'd be happy to consider an example.
One similar example that comes to mind is the relics in Dark Age of
Camelot. Beyond the "quest" to possess a relic, there may be quests
that are only offered during one of the states, such as when Albion
has its Merlin's Staff stolen. Are there?
David - MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Miroslav Silovic
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Roger Hicks
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Paul Schwanz
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Douglas Goodall
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Douglas Goodall
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy David Kennerly
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Mike Rozak
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy olag@ifi.uio.no
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Mark Mensch
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Vincent Archer
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... ceo
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Tess Snider
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Vladimir Cole
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Mike Oxford
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... olag@ifi.uio.no
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Johan A
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Tess Snider
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... ceo
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Rayzam
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Tom Hunter
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Michael Sellers
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat olag@ifi.uio.no
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Darkwolf
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat olag@ifi.uio.no
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Rayzam
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Jon Monteleone
- Homogeneity and choice Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice Paolo Piselli
- Homogeneity and choice Sporky McBeard
- DESIGN: IGDA Persistent Worlds White Paper Alistair Milne
- DESIGN: IGDA Persistent Worlds White Paper Daniel James
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Sporky McBeard
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Kiztent Hatepriest
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Amanda Walker
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Greg Titus
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Travis Nixon
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content cruise
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Michael Hartman
- [SPAM] DESIGN: WoW quests and content Dana V. Baldwin
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Edward Glowacki
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Michael Hartman
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Byron Ellacott
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Johan A
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content logic@jrlogic.dyndns.org
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content olag@ifi.uio.no
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Damion Schubert
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Johan A
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Mike Shaver
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Byron Ellacott
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Michael Hartman
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content John Buehler
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Jim Purbrick
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content David Kennerly
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Chris
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content P J
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Damion Schubert
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Yannick Jean
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 15 Dread Quixadhal
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Johan A
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Spot
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Bob Kovalchick
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Sean Howard
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Brett Bibby
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Dread Quixadhal
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Vincent Archer
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Mike Shaver
- WoW and humor Amanda Walker
- WoW and humor Vincent Archer
- WoW and humor Mike Oxford
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Michael Hartman
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Kiztent Hatepriest
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Michael Hartman
- D&D Online Level Limit Thoughts Greg B
- D&D Online Level Limit Thoughts Byron Ellacott
- D&D Online Level Limit Thoughts Grimwell
- FW: DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Lisa Galarneau
- FW: DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Ben Carter
- FW: DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Vincent Archer