January 2005
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- [SPAM] DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs? Dana V. Baldwin
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) John Buehler
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) John Buehler
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) John Buehler
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Wayne Witzke
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Corey Cauble
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) HRose
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) cruise
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) Michael Sellers
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) P J
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) cruise
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) John Buehler
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) cruise
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) John Buehler
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) cruise
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) John Buehler
- Attractive Grouping (Was: Focus vs. Scope) Ling Lo
- Focus vs. Scope (WAS: Homogeneity and choice) HRose
- Homogeneity and choice Eric Random
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Koster, Raph
- Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Damion Schubert
- Wish cancelled... Eric Scholten
- New job...Alternate Reality Games Adam
- Wish cancelled... Artur Biesiadowski
- MMORPG Cancellations of the past 2 Years Michael Hartman
- MMORPG Cancellations of the past 2 Years Mike Rozak
- ***SPAM*** Homogeneity and choice (Was DESIGN: Why do people like weather in MMORPGs?) Miroslav Silovic
- [Media] A WoW stats web site Mike Rozak
- [Media] A WoW stats web site Zak Jensen
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Tom Hunter
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Amanda Walker
- weapon choices Matthew D. Fuller
- weapon choices Tom Hunter
- weapon choices cruise
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do peoplelikeweather in MMORPGs?) Matt Mihaly
- weapon choices (was DESIGN: Why do people likeweather in MMORPGs?) Douglas Goodall
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play olag@ifi.uio.no
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play ceo
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play olag@ifi.uio.no
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Mike Oxford
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Johan A
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play olag@ifi.uio.no
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Vincent Archer
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Johan A
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play cruise
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Johan A
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Damion Schubert
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play cruise
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Zach Collins (Siege)
- Alternative team based approaches to game-play Douglas Goodall
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Miroslav Silovic
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Michael Hartman
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
"Michael Hartman" <michael@thresholdrpg.com> wrote:
> Sporky McBeard wrote:
>> You want to "fix" MMORPG quests. Here's what needs to happen:
> I disagree with almost all of your points to varying degrees of
> intensity.
Great! If you agreed, there'd be nothing to discuss :)
>> 1) Dump the story crap - Nobody reads that stuff, nobody
>> cares. They see "Find 12 Bloody Monkey Paws" and skip the rest.
> Wrong. Horribly, short sightedly, wrong.
> There are actually a lot of people who read the stuff and derive a
> lot of enjoyment from that part of the quests.
There are people who like to pierce uncomfortable body parts. No
matter what you do, you'll find some people who like something and
some who don't. As a designer, your job is not to cater to all of
them individually, but instead simultaneously. Since stories only
appeal to a rather small portion of the audience, and contribute
nothing tangible to the gameplay, there are better ways to spend
your time and energy.
That isn't to say that you shouldn't make interesting vistas or
interesting characters or even interesting quests (note the
distinction) - just that the story part, the passive part, is
largely optional.
> I've seen these kinds of ranges in my own games and in every game
> I have played. Some people love the story and would be absolutely
> bored to tears if the story did not exist.
You are telling me that on a server with a thousand other players,
these people would be bored because they couldn't stop everything
and read a short story? That sounds like a failure of the designers
and the world, not of the pleasures of storytelling.
>> 3) Change the missions - Players go through the exact same
>> motions with every quest as just about every other
>> player. Something like Thottbot allows other players to look up
>> the locations and goals that other players had already
>> discovered. Personally, I think that instance missions are the
>> answer here, because you can modify the mission based on the
>> player.
> Instanced missions have their place- they prevent having to watch
> the Uber Evil Bad Guy you just killed respawn. But they are not in
> and of themselves the answer and overuse of instances has a severe
> negative aspect of the MM part of an MMORPG.
I said that the use of instances was a good solution for missions
which change with the players, not that they were the end all be all
of MMORPGdom. Like you said, instanced missions have their place.
>> 4) Allow certain players to create their own quests - I think it
>> would be pretty nifty for a player to post a mission saying that
>> they need X number of monkey paws and that they'll pay Y dollars
>> for it.
> Not a bad idea, but really not a very effective one. Players can
> already do this through interaction. Perhaps a formally coded
> method might help, but I suspect the impact of this would be
> minimal.
What people seem to miss is that some people enjoy playing in a
world that other players affect, even if they don't talk to
them. Even just the existence of something like an auction house is
enough to make or break a multiplayer experience. Any way that gives
players the ability communicate with each other passively is a new
branch of communication worth taking.
>> 5) Allow certain players to create their own dungeons - I
>> promise you that players are far more creative than most MMORPGs
>> give them credit for.
> I can assure you that the majority of players are LESS creative
> than you think and will create such inane filth that it will
> actually cheapen your game and damage your gaming environment.
Actually, the solution to that is fairly simple. At low levels, make
the changes possible to a dungeon very strict. For instance, you can
only have five rooms and can only place monsters of level 5 - 7
(perhaps other players capture and train the monsters?) in specific
slots around the level. Slowly introduce the players to new
elements as they get used to the old ones. I see no reason why even
the most uncreative player couldn't create a decent modular dungeon,
given enough direction and plenty of explicit boundaries. I guess
what I'm saying is, make it difficult to screw up.
There's this excellent Japanese GB game called Seme COM Dungeons
Druaga in which players collect cards that represent monsters,
equipment, and what not. A player has a dungeon connected to the
other player's dungeon by teleports. They don't make the floorplan -
there are dozens of pre-made dungeons available. When the battle
begins, you can put up to two monsters per room up to a limit of 8
monsters total. You can add monsters afterwards, but you have to do
it from your in game character. The game is EXTREMELY strategic and
open ended, even with the apparently limited building system.
>> 6) Dump the quests altogether - I mean, what purpose do quests
>> really serve.
> Perhaps this one sums up why so many of the above suggestions are
> bad ones. It sounds like YOU don't really like quests and just
> churn through them for the rewards. That's fine. That is why no
> game should REQUIRE questing (WoW requires a few painful quests
> just to get core class abilities, for example).
I actually like quests a lot. But when it comes down to it, if
removing them from the equation allows us to open our minds to
further possibilities, I'm all for it. I don't think that quests are
the only solution. Some MMORPGs, like WoW, use it as a crutch
instead of providing what I would consider "deep" content (though
the battlefields do look like a step in the right direction).
> But don't let the fact that you clearly dislike quests bias you
> towards them entirely. There are certainly ways to make them
> better, but dumping them or dumping the story are not two good
> suggestions.
They aren't bad suggestions, just extreme ones. Thinking outside the
box sometimes requires a shock to the system to get started.
- Sean Howard
www.squidi.net - MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Mike Shaver
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Vincent Archer
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Michael Hartman
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Paul Schwanz
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Bart Simon
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Jon Mayo
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Byron Ellacott
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy David Kennerly
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Paul Schwanz
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy David Kennerly
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Miroslav Silovic
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Roger Hicks
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Paul Schwanz
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Douglas Goodall
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Sporky McBeard
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Douglas Goodall
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Mike Rozak
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy olag@ifi.uio.no
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Mark Mensch
- MMO Quest: Why they're still lousy Vincent Archer
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... ceo
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Tess Snider
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Vladimir Cole
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Mike Oxford
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... olag@ifi.uio.no
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Johan A
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Tess Snider
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... ceo
- [bus][des] Anarchy Online and the free MMORPG... Douglas Goodall
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Rayzam
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Tom Hunter
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Michael Sellers
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat olag@ifi.uio.no
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Darkwolf
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat olag@ifi.uio.no
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Rayzam
- realistic combat vs enjoyable combat Jon Monteleone
- Homogeneity and choice Mike Rozak
- Homogeneity and choice Paolo Piselli
- Homogeneity and choice Sporky McBeard
- DESIGN: IGDA Persistent Worlds White Paper Alistair Milne
- DESIGN: IGDA Persistent Worlds White Paper Daniel James
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Sporky McBeard
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Kiztent Hatepriest
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Amanda Walker
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Greg Titus
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Travis Nixon
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content cruise
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Michael Hartman
- [SPAM] DESIGN: WoW quests and content Dana V. Baldwin
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Edward Glowacki
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Michael Hartman
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Byron Ellacott
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Johan A
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content logic@jrlogic.dyndns.org
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content olag@ifi.uio.no
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Damion Schubert
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Johan A
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Mike Shaver
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Byron Ellacott
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Michael Hartman
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content John Buehler
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Jim Purbrick
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content David Kennerly
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Chris
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content P J
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Damion Schubert
- DESIGN: WoW quests and content Yannick Jean
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 15 Dread Quixadhal
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Johan A
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Spot
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Bob Kovalchick
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Sean Howard
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Brett Bibby
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Dread Quixadhal
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Vincent Archer
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Mike Shaver
- WoW and humor Amanda Walker
- WoW and humor Vincent Archer
- WoW and humor Mike Oxford
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Michael Hartman
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Kiztent Hatepriest
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 20, Issue 16 Michael Hartman
- D&D Online Level Limit Thoughts Greg B
- D&D Online Level Limit Thoughts Byron Ellacott
- D&D Online Level Limit Thoughts Grimwell
- FW: DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Lisa Galarneau
- FW: DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Ben Carter
- FW: DESIGN: Study of MMORPG/MUD friendliness Vincent Archer