July 2004
- [News] Ultima X: Odyssey cancelled Luca Girardo
- [News] Ultima X: Odyssey cancelled Steven King
- [News] Ultima X: Odyssey cancelled Luca Girardo
- [News] Ultima X: Odyssey cancelled David Kennerly
- [News] Ultima X: Odyssey cancelled Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Threshold RPG
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Par Winzell
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Threshold RPG
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Dana V. Baldwin
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Mark Mensch
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Luca Girardo
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Dana V. Baldwin
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Michael Hartman
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Threshold RPG
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Adam Burr
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Scott Macmillan
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Douglas Goodall
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Sean Howard
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Amanda Walker
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Scott Macmillan
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Sean Howard
- CoH Michael Hartman
- CoH Michael Hartman
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Ryan Shwayder
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? cruise
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Oliver Smith
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Koster, Raph
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Oliver Smith
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Koster, Raph
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Byron Ellacott
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Koster, Raph
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Brad McQuaid
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Douglas Goodall
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Dana V. Baldwin
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Douglas Goodall
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Zach Collins (Siege)
- Instancing (was: MMORPG Cancellations...) Douglas Goodall
- Instancing ceo
- Instancing Douglas Goodall
- Instancing ceo
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Oliver Smith
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Koster, Raph
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- Depth (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Damion Schubert
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Sean Howard
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Ghilardi Filippo
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Michael Hartman
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Michael Hartman
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Amanda Walker
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Michael Sellers
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Amanda Walker
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Koster, Raph
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Paul McInnes
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Andres Ferraro
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Koster, Raph
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Ryan Shwayder
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Amanda Walker
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Koster, Raph
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Mark Mensch
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Mark Mensch
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Derek Licciardi
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Tom "cro" Gordon
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Erik Bethke
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The skyis falling?) Koster, Raph
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The skyis falling?) Tom "cro" Gordon
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Douglas Goodall
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Tom "cro" Gordon
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky isfalling?) Sean Howard
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: Thesky isfalling?) Derek Licciardi
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: Theskyisfalling?) Sean Howard
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: Thesky isfalling?) John MacQueen
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: Thesky isfalling?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: Thesky isfalling?) Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky isfalling?) Aaron Switzer
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: Thesky isfalling?) Sean Howard
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: Thesky isfalling?) Aaron Switzer
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Thesky isfalling?) Sean Howard
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Thesky isfalling?) Aaron Switzer
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Koster, Raph
- MMO Communities (was MMORPGCancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Sean Howard
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) ceo
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Paul Schwanz
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Tom "cro" Gordon
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Paul Schwanz
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities (was [MUD-Dev]MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Matt Mihaly
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) John Arras
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Douglas Goodall
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) John Arras
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Douglas Goodall
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) cruise
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Douglas Goodall
- MMO Simulations (was MMO Communities) John Arras
- MMO Simulations (was MMO Communities) Douglas Goodall
- MMO Simulations (was MMO Communities) Peter Keeler
- MMO Simulations (was MMO Communities) Otis Viles
- MMO Simulations (was MMO Communities) Malcolm W. Tester II
- MMO Simulations (was MMO Communities) Matt Mihaly
- MMO Simulations (was MMO Communities) cruise
- MMO Communities (was [MUD-Dev] MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Paul Schwanz
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Douglas Goodall
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Zach Collins (Siege)
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Paolo Piselli
- forced grouping/coop play Tamzen Cannoy
- forced grouping/coop play Koster, Raph
- forced grouping/coop play Sean Kelly
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Andrew L. Tepper
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) HRose
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Douglas Goodall
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) HRose
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) HRose
- What is an MMOG? (was: MMO Communities) ceo
- What is an MMOG? (was: MMO Communities) HRose
- What is an MMOG? ceo
- What is an MMOG? HRose
- What is an MMOG? Dana V. Baldwin
- What is an MMOG? HRose
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) HRose
- MMO Communities Eric Random
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky isfalling?) Paul Schwanz
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) J C Lawrence
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMO Communities (was MMORPG Cancellations: The skyis falling?) Derek Licciardi
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? ceo
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Tom "cro" Gordon
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Thomas Tomiczek
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Douglas Goodall
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Koster, Raph
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Scott Jennings
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Steven King
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Amanda Walker
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? David Kennerly
- Words (WAS: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Zach Collins (Siege)
- Words (WAS: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) kennerly@finegamedesign.com
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? zgj22@drexel.edu
- Is space deep? (was MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) David Kennerly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Tony Hoyt
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Damion Schubert
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Samantha LeCraft
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Sean Howard
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Samantha LeCraft
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Matt Mihaly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Oliver Smith
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Kerry Fraser-Robinson
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Damion Schubert
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Amanda Walker
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? J C Lawrence
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? David Kennerly
- MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling? Michael Sellers
- Sun Game Server Technology Chat Artur Biesiadowski
- Quick Hello Mark Mensch
- Virtual/Real Currencies (was: [MUD-Dev][NEWS]GamingOpenMarket) Jon A. Lambert
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Alex Chacha
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Matt Mihaly
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Russ Whiteman
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Mike Rozak
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Douglas Goodall
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Mike Rozak
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Byron Ellacott
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Mike Rozak
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Byron Ellacott
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Yannick Jean
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Otis Viles
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Mike Rozak
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Erik Bethke
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Matt Mihaly
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) dienw
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Matt Mihaly
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) J C Lawrence
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Matt Mihaly
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) J C Lawrence
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Matt Mihaly
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Erik Bethke
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Matt Mihaly
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Erik Bethke
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Matt Mihaly
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Sean Howard
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Michael Hartman
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Erik Bethke
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Michael Hartman
- CoH and others (was Cancellations: ...) Luca Girardo
- CoH and others Alex Chacha
- CoH and others Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- CoH and others David Eckelberry
- CoH and others Vincent Archer
- COH and others Alex Chacha
- COH and others Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- COH and others Alex Chacha
- Revenues Rafael Seabra
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Koster, Raph
- CoH (was: MMORPG Cancellations: The sky is falling?) Damion Schubert
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Ghilardi Filippo
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Mike Rozak
- [MUD-Dev]: Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Luca Girardo
- Virtual/Real Currencies Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Koster, Raph
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Derek Licciardi
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Indie MMOG's Rob C
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Rob C
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Rob C
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Michael Sellers
- Indie MMOG's Michael Sellers
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Matt Mihaly
- Indie MMOG's Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Indie MMOG's Matt Mihaly
- Indie MMOG's Amanda Walker
- Indie MMOG's Jon A. Lambert
- Indie MMOG's Zach Collins (Siege)
- Indie MMOG's Amanda Walker
- Indie MMOG's Derek Licciardi
- Indie MMOG's ceo
- Indie MMOG's Matt Mihaly
- Indie MMOG's Mike Rozak
- Indie MMOG's Scott Jennings
- Indie MMOG's Mike Rozak
- Indie MMOG's Tiago Carita
- Indie MMOG's Matt Mihaly
- Indie MMOG's Derek Licciardi
- Indie MMOG's Matt Mihaly
- Online vs Offline (was CoH and others) Mike Rozak
- Security and cheating in MMOs jmbroyer
- [NEWS] Artifact Entertainment going bankrupt? Luca Girardo
- MEDIA: Multiplayer Gaming's Quiet Revolution J C Lawrence
- DarkGalaxy Tiago Carita
- (no subject) Ghilardi Filippo
- Community? Erik Bethke
- Community? Scott Jennings
- Community? Paul Schwanz
- Community? Brian Thyer
- Community? Sean Howard
- Community? Zach Collins (Siege)
- Community? (Level Grind) Brian Thyer
- Community? (Level Grind) Sean Howard
- Community? (Level Grind) Damion Schubert
- Community? (Level Grind) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Community? (Level Grind) Malcolm W. Tester II
- Community? (Level Grind) Victor Wachter
- Community? (Level Grind) Douglas Goodall
- Community? (Level Grind) Matt Mihaly
- Community? (Level Grind) Ghilardi Filippo
- Community? (Level Grind) HRose
- Community? (Level Grind) Douglas Goodall
- Community? (Level Grind) Ghilardi Filippo
- Community? (Level Grind) Samurai Cat!
- Scalabity in MMOG's Rafael Seabra
- Level Grind - alternative Brendan O'Brien
- Level Grind - alternative darksuit
- Level Grind - alternative Brendan O'Brien
- Level Grind - alternative cruise
- Level Grind - alternative Brendan O'Brien
- Level Grind - alternative cruise
- Level Grind - alternative Brendan O'Brien
- Level Grind - alternative Corey Cauble
- Level Grind - alternative Sean Howard
- Level Grind - alternative Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Better Combat cruise
- Better Combat Ghilardi Filippo
- Better Combat cruise
- Better Combat John Buehler
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat John Buehler
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat John Buehler
David Kennerly writes:
> John Buehler wrote:
>> In the context that I'm talking about, I'm starting with the
>> assumption that the player has a different mindset for
>> interacting with a character. They herd it more than they drive
>> it. Because their control is imprecise, the game is about trying
>> to get the character to navigate and accomodate the influences
>> that affect it.
> So they're like The Sims? Sounds kind of like a pet, which many
> MM players love.
The focus of attention in The Sims is the career of many characters.
The focus of attention in EverQuest is the micromanagement of a
single character. I'd like to broaden the focus of attention to
what's going on around a single character. I can't imagine both
driving a character EverQuest-style and also keeping track of new
information such as a complex faction system, a greater volume of
objects around the character, etc. The player is already fully
loaded from a task standpoint, and adding new forms of entertainment
just isn't practical. The player only has 10 fingers and two
eyeballs.
As a result, the player needs to back off of the micromanaging of
the character so that they can find entertainment in higher-order
tasks. I use the term 'herding' because of the imprecision of
control, not because of any desire to have players managing multiple
characters.
>> It may be that encouraging such a separation between character
>> and player will encourage socialization - which implies a certain
>> loss of control.
> Why does having a pet encourage socialization? For the same
> reason having a real pet encourages flirting?
Micromanagement does NOT encourage socialization. Current games
keep players involved by presenting them with the dilemma of
carefully controlling everything that their character does - or
else. I can be in the middle of sending a message to another player
when my character is suddenly attacked. My character won't so much
as defend itself unless I tell it to, and I have to discard what I
was saying to another player in order to get the character to defend
itself.
Micromanagmenet has saturated the player with trivial
responsibilities. This is an effect that fighter pilots encounter
because of all the stuff that's going on. I recall the story of a
pilot whose wingman told him over the radio that there was an
air-to-air missile coming at him. The guy never heard it because he
was focusing on his cockpit, the mission, his radios and a pile of
other stuff.
I believe that by moving the player a step away from the character,
time will be freed up for the player to get involved in other tasks.
Perhaps research, perhaps investigation of what objects are around
the character as it moves through town, perhaps talking to other
players.
>> Which takes us back to the herding tactic. Imprecise control
>> over a character impairs a player's ability to micro-manage the
>> character. Given that knowledge, the game need not be predicated
>> on players micro-managing characters, running treadmills
>> optimally, etc.
> I'd like to see an example. In my imagination it means
> macro-managing is the tools the player has to work with to
> optimize. One can optimize Dungeon Keeper or Civilization as well
> as Chess. It's not the level of control that determines
> optimization.
The level of control decides what the player should be asked to
optimize. Try dancing ballet with an EverQuest character. It just
can't be done because of the lack of control at that level. Back
off farther from that level of control and players will optimize on
whatever they can control.
> But in my opinion, optimization is the player's prerogative. As
> hard as I've tried, I've never stopped the power-gamer cold in his
> feet and forced him to consider a different method of interacting
> with the MMP. I've given other options, but many powergamers have
> no other desire. I guess it's true in real-life too. Some people
> are just materialist power-seekers that will follow any activity,
> repetitive or mindless, if it leads to power.
The key is the last clause: "if it leads to power". This combat
system exists in a game where there are no traditional levels.
Power is accumulated in context. If you configure your character to
be a master of the quarterstaff, then the power wielded is physical
power in combat. Perhaps you have a position in the PvP ladder.
But the character has no political power, and no skill in crafting.
So certain portions of the game are closed to your character.
Want to open those areas up? Reconfigure your character. Add
political skill and start climbing the political ladder to gain
political standing. No real power, just as being on the PvP ladder
doesn't give you power, but it gives you rank and a sense of
accomplishment. And then there are the cooperative efforts that
move the game story along.
> I have a bit of Devil's advocacy...
>> I want players to relate stories of what happened in a single
>> encounter, not talk about how many hours they camped a mob.
> What about the hours they spent herding their pet?
That's when they're relating stories, enjoying the scenery, finding
out about what other players are doing, etc. They should also be
planning their trip to some distant land using in-game utilities.
Perhaps they need to do some resource management on their craftsman,
review the political alliances that they have, and so on.
That's the goal of 'herding'. When travelling or some such thing,
the player is freed up to do other tasks - and those other tasks had
better be available or the game simply turns boring; too much free
time.
>> The stories that I've heard and told are invariably the ones
>> where something unexpected happens,
> Isn't that what makes a good story?
Yes. And I want more unexpectedness in the game. Thus the loss of
precise control and the introduction of a wider array of possible
ways of interacting. Improvisation is the goal.
>> and usually because a player made some mistake.
> Would it have been unexpected otherwise?
I mentioned player mistakes because they're viewed as mistakes.
They're not improvisations at opportune moments. Those would be
both unexpected and entertaining. Mistakes are unexpected and
oppose the treadmill. But everyone is running the treadmill. They
don't want somebody in the group tripping things up.
> Now back to some of the key points of the design:
>> Imprecise control by herding a character can aid in making
>> encounters more involved and unpredictable.
> Well, you defined herding as less interactive. As for
> unpredictable, that sounds like Stone soup. It may be more
> unpredictable. But why? It's not from randomness or the
> complexity.
Something is predictable when you already know what will be
presented to you as well as how any interaction with that thing will
proceed. When the game world involves more factors into combat,
there are a greater number of permutations of those factors
possible. If they have a meaningful impact to combat then combat
encounters will unfold in a number of ways. When the changing
environment is included in the equation, every encounter will be
unique.
> By definition, nothing is more unpredictable than randomness.
> However, an attack roll with a 50/50 chance is not interesting,
> because there's only two outcomes, and given time, it just becomes
> a binomial distribution, and then eventually a normal
> distribution. What is the ingredient that makes this design
> involving?
And as a result it's very predictable at a macro level. Therefore
it is not very involving after a certain number of encounters.
Returning to the flight simulator, note that there is nothing random
about the behavior of a flight simulator. It's all very
straightforward calculations - but entirely based on environment,
the characteristics of the vehicle and the imprecise control of the
pilot. That is what makes it engaging.
>> Further, we needn't assume that the game is a treadmill grind.
> In my experience, the players turn anything persistent and
> distinguishing into a treadmill, despite the designer's
> intentions. My best successes at countermining the grind were
> giving treadmills that required creativity, such as awarding
> exclusive garments, titles, and quest-activation to winners of
> literature, art, and philosophy contests.
Try removing cumulative rewards.
Only short-term rewards exist as a result. And I don't mean
long-term rewards that erode. I mean only short-term rewards exist.
Win a race? Cool. You won a race. There isn't a ladder based on
how many races you've won, so the game doesn't inherently encourage
such treadmill behavior.
By eliminating cumulative rewards, players start to look at the
entertainment itself. If they don't find it entertaining, they move
on - business suicide. Because it's difficult to come up with basic
entertainment, but it's easy to construct a treadmill for a
particular type of player, game developers build treadmills.
>> Herding a character is the key. Clients send directives to the
>> server to get them implemented. Such directives cannot be
>> fine-grained, such as 'move left 1 foot'. They would be
>> directives such as 'go to the bakery'. The server then relies on
>> the design of the player's character to decide how to get to the
>> bakery.
> I see. Now I'm following the implementation. God, how I wish
> MMPs would have some sort of pathfinding for players. Even if it
> were a simple graph embedded in the level data. But I digress.
> :)
>> In combat, this means that characters must be able to operate
>> fairly autonomously because of all the real time reactions that
>> go into combat. Ducking, dodging, etc.
> I see. Cool. A few years ago I gave tactics like this some
> thought in a design. Because of lag, I still think it's a good
> idea. The devil, of course, still remains in the details.
Absolutely. This isn't stuff that an engineer can knock off in a
weekend. Some of it just isn't practical yet. For example, the AI
portion of the characters is going to be super-touchy. Get it wrong
and characters are either just doing stupid things all the time or
are doing stuff that just stupid enough to completely annoy the
players.
> The cause you're fighting for is not entirely absent. Although
> you use different themes, many MMPs do have some tactical play to
> them. In the Kingdom of the Winds, there are a number of
> role-specific tactics, such as an ambush ability that is a cute
> teleportation effect. This is not to say that there's no room for
> improvement. Just that some of what you are saying, to me, sounds
> like different clothes for the same tactics, but...
> hopefully... balanced to a finer degree to avoid dominant
> strategies.
The missing part is improvisation. Designers continue to believe
that they must design every bit of entertainment that the players
will experience. And part of that is a result of the treadmill.
Here we are in a long distance race, and everyone wants to know that
they're fairly matched against the competition. So they make sure
that the bandit class gets 'ambush' and the paladin class gets
'anti-ambush'. Diametric opposition leads to predictability and
optimization.
Remove the long distance race and remove balance. Lack of balance
keeps things more entertaining. But only if essentially nothing is
on the line.
It's okay to have a long distance race. But it's so impossibly
restrictive on game design to make everything a 'fair marathon'.
> Having said all the above, I look forward to playing it! Let me
> know if you need a tester. :) It's got potential, and sure would
> be worth trying after the years of D&D-bastard-children games that
> most MMPs won't or can't break from. Even CoH, which has been
> more fun than any of the other D&D-bastard children still clings
> to the tank-healer-nuke-buff role model. Could be just me, but I
> am bored of that model. But then again, I was bored of the D&D
> (tactical) "role"playing model before there were graphical MMPs
> derivatives of it.
Yes, and I'd love to play it as well. It's a shame I don't have the
money to throw at getting all the base technologies to work. For
now it will remain an untested idea.
I haven't played City of Heroes, but I'm tempted to believe that
they're planning on building up from a basic experience. I like to
think that's the way I'd do it: find a simple game experience that
people will fool around with. Then incrementally add other
experiences that are equally-well crafted. Look to the long term.
JB - Better Combat Amanda Walker
- Better Combat John Buehler
- Better Combat cruise
- Better Combat Michael Hartman
- Better Combat Yannick Jean
- Better Combat Koster, Raph
- Better Combat HRose
- Better Combat Michael Hartman
- Better Communication [was: Better Combat] cruise
- Better Communication [was: Better Combat] Michael Hartman
- Better Communication [was: Better Combat] cruise
- Better Communication [was: Better Combat] Koster, Raph
- Better Communication [was: Better Combat] Michael Hartman
- Better Combat Paul Schwanz
- Better Combat Douglas Goodall
- Better Combat Darkwolf
- Better Combat Dana V. Baldwin
- Better Combat Matt Mihaly
- Better Combat Koster, Raph
- Better Combat Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Better Combat HRose
- Better Combat Steven King
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Paolo Piselli
- Better Combat Zach Collins (Siege)
- Better Combat Douglas Goodall
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat John Buehler
- Better Combat HRose
- Better Combat Koster, Raph
- Better Combat HRose
- Better Combat (keywords: downtime, socialization, UI) Eric Random
- Better Combat Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Better Combat Amanda Walker
- Better Combat Yannick Jean
- Better Combat Yannick Jean
- Better Combat Tom "cro" Gordon
- Better Combat Alex Arnon
- Better Combat Douglas Goodall
- Better Combat Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Better Combat Douglas Goodall
- Better Combat Douglas Goodall
- Better Combat Michael Hartman
- Better Combat Douglas Goodall
- Better Combat Michael Hartman
- Better Combat Dana V. Baldwin
- Better Combat Michael Hartman
- Better Combat Dana V. Baldwin
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Derek Larson
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Derek Larson
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat cruise
- Cognitively Interesting Combat ceo
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Byron Ellacott
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Ben Hawes
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Ben Hawes
- Cognitively Interesting Combat KaVir@t-online.de (Richard Woolcock)
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Mike Rozak
- Cognitively Interesting Combat
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Zach Collins (Siege)
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Peter A. Harkins
- Cognitively Interesting Combat Paolo Piselli
- Cognitively Interesting Combat (was Better Combat) cruise
- Better Combat Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- [DGN] Designed Downtime (was Better Combat) David Kennerly
- [DGN] Designed Downtime (was Better Combat) Ryan Shwayder
- [DGN] Designed Downtime (was Better Combat) Ryan Shwayder
- [DGN] Designed Downtime (was Better Combat) Michael Hartman
- Better Combat Alex Arnon
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat John Buehler
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat John Buehler
- Long-Term Rewards [was: Better Combat] cruise
- Long-Term Rewards [was: Better Combat] John Buehler
- Long-Term Rewards [was: Better Combat] Matt Mihaly
- Long-Term Rewards [was: Better Combat] Otis Viles
- Long-Term Rewards [was: Better Combat] Ben Hawes
- Long-Term Rewards [was: Better Combat] John Buehler
- Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPG avatar [was: Long-Term Rewards] Michael Hartman
- Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPG avatar [was:Long-Term Rewards] Vladimir Cole
- Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPG avatar Corey Crawford
- Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPG avatar Byron Ellacott
- Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPG avatar Vladimir Cole
- Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPG avatar Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Deriving Self Esteem from one's MMORPG avatar Mark Mensch
- Better Combat John Buehler
- Better Combat Brendan O'Brien
- Better Combat Zach Collins (Siege)
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Brendan O'Brien
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat cruise
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Byron Ellacott
- Better Combat Craig Huber
- Better Combat Matt Mihaly
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Byron Ellacott
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Byron Ellacott
- Better Combat Paul Schwanz
- Better Combat Michael Hartman
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Matt Mihaly
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Eric Random
- Better Combat Eric Random
- Better Combat Corey Cauble
- Better Combat David Kennerly
- Better Combat Corey Cauble
- Better Combat Brendan O'Brien
- Better Combat (long) Paul Schwanz
- Better Combat (long) Douglas Goodall
- [DGN] Music (was: Better Combat (long)) Zach Collins (Siege)
- Better Combat (long) Koster, Raph
- Better Combat (long) Matthew Dobervich
- Better Combat (long) David Kennerly
- Better Combat (long) Koster, Raph
- Better Combat (long) David Kennerly
- Creating a Player Narrative Ben Hawes
- Creating a Player Narrative Douglas Goodall
- Creating a Player Narrative Tim Schubert
- Creating a Player Narrative Dana V. Baldwin
- Creating a Player Narrative John MacQueen
- Better Combat (long) Matt Monaghan
- Better Combat (long) David Kennerly
- Better Combat (long) Byron Ellacott
- Better Combat (long) J C Lawrence
- Better Combat (long) Freeman, Jeff
- Better Combat (long) cruise
- Better Combat (long) J C Lawrence
- Better Combat (long) Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Better Combat (long) Vincent Archer
- Better Combat (long) Matt Cruikshank
- Better Combat (long) Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Better Combat (long) Zach Collins (Siege)
- Better Combat (long) David Kennerly
- Better Combat (long) Zach Collins (Siege)
- Better Combat (long) Paul Schwanz
- Better Combat (long) David Kennerly
- Better Combat (long) Ben Hawes
- Better Combat Byron Ellacott
- Better Combat cruise
- Better Combat Brendan O'Brien
- Better Combat Dana V. Baldwin
- Better Combat Byron Ellacott
- Level Grind - alternative Sean Kelly
- Level Grind - alternative Mark 'Kamikaze' Hughes
- Level Grind - alternative Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Level Grind - alternative Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- [mudlist] MMO Communities (was [MUD-Dev] MMORPG Cancellations:Theskyisfalling?) Morgan Dodge
- New combat system Cameron Zemek
- MMO Communities Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMO Communities Randolf Richardson
- MMO Communities Ashley Penney
- MMO Communities Damion Schubert
- MMO Communities Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMO Communities Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities Freeman, Jeff
- MMO Communities Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities Dana V. Baldwin
- MMO Communities Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities Freeman, Jeff
- MMO Communities Zach Collins (Siege)
- MMO Communities Brendan O'Brien
- MMO Communities Matt Mihaly
- MMO Communities Brendan O'Brien
- MMO Communities Brad McQuaid
- MMO Communities Matt Mihaly
- MMO Communities Brendan O'Brien
- MMO Communities Matt Mihaly
- MMO Communities J C Lawrence
- MMO Communities Freeman, Jeff
- MMO Communities Brad McQuaid
- MMO Communities Freeman, Jeff
- MMO Communities Matt Mihaly
- MMO Communities Mike Rozak
- MMO Communities Matt Mihaly
- MMO Communities Tom Hunter
- MMO Communities zgj22@drexel.edu
- MMO Communities Tom Hunter
- MMO Communities (keywords: commercial influence) Eric Random
- MMO Communities Brad McQuaid
- MMO Communities Michael Hartman
- MMO Communities Tom "cro" Gordon
- MMO Communities Paul Schwanz
- MMO Communities Michael Hartman
- MMO Communities Paul Schwanz
- MMO Communities Byron Ellacott
- MMO Communities HRose
- MMO Communities Freeman, Jeff
- MMO Communities Michael Sellers
- MMO Communities HRose
- MMO Communities Freeman, Jeff
- MMO Communities HRose
- MMO Communities Morgan Dodge
- MMO Communities Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- MMO Communities Freeman, Jeff
- [DGN] Socialization against the fun Eric Random
- MMO Communities Koster, Raph
- MMO Communities Michael Sellers
- MMO Communities Yannick Jean
- MMO Communities Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- What is an MMOG? (was: MMO Communities) ceo