May 2004
- Thief class (was: MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23) Ghilardi Filippo
- Levels, classes and choice cruise
- Levels, classes and choice Sean Howard
- R: Playing catch-up with levels Ghilardi Filippo
- R: Levels, classes and choice Ghilardi Filippo
- R: Levels, classes and choice Byron Ellacott
- What is an RPG? [Was: Playing catch-up with levels] Sean Middleditch
- What is an RPG? [Was: Playing catch-up with levels] Darksuit
- What is an RPG? [Was: Playing catch-up with levels] Sean Middleditch
- What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
- What is an RPG? Threshold RPG
- What is an RPG? Byron Ellacott
- What is an RPG? Amanda Walker
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? rick cronan
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? rick cronan
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Freeman, Jeff
- SOC ANNOUNCE: Research project into Social Interactions in MMORPG field, need help PMooney@peddie.org
- Multiplayer Game Logic System sszretter
- Multiplayer Game Logic System Douglas Goodall
- Multiplayer Game Logic System Mike Rozak
- [SOC] A letter: Dear MMOG Corey Crawford
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Freeman, Jeff
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Jeff Fuller
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
- Reminder: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Amanda Walker
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Alex Chacha
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Jason Downs
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Online adventure games J C Lawrence
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Fred Snyder
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Fred Snyder
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Steven King
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Amanda Walker
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Alex Chacha
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Tracy Lee
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games J C Lawrence
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- MEDIA: Puzzle Pirates wins Webby J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Online Economies Brian Thyer
- IRC Channels for Virtual Worlds Discussion Matt Wilson
- Natural Language Generation Tiago Carita
- Natural Language Generation Eric Rhea
- Natural Language Generation Douglas Goodall
- Natural Language Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Natural Language Generation mugginsm@under-the-fridge.com
- Natural Language Generation Michael "Flury" Chui
- Natural Language Generation Sean Middleditch
- Natural Language Generation blizzard36_2002@yahoo.com
- Natural Language Generation Steven King
- Natural Language Generation Michael "Flury" Chui
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Robert Zubek
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Malcolm W. Tester II
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
On Sat, 22 May 2004 20:12:45 -0500
Michael Sellers <mike@onlinealchemy.com> wrote:
> IMO, looking at this as a NLP/NLG problem is very much like confusing
> grammar with semantics. "Green ideas sleep furiously" is a
> grammatically correct sentence, but one without meaning; someone who
> utters that in conversation isn't believably intelligent. In the same
> way, NPCs that can converse freely but without significant semantic
> content are hardly believable -- and it's these that get in the way of
> gameplay, as you say; they quickly remind you that you're not really
> interacting with a world, but with a shallow stupid program.
> Believable characters OTOH -- with or without NLG -- will make
> gameplay much more immersive and consequential. Imagine asking a
> tavern keeper NPC for info on where to buy good weapons. Consider how
> his responses might differ based on whether he's seen you before,
> whether you tipped well last time, whether and how he's heard other
> NPCs (and PCs) talk about you, and, say, whether he heard you were
> flirting heavily with the blacksmith's daughter (whom he happens to be
> in love with), or were the one to save her from ruffians. This goes
> way beyond script- or knowledge-based responses, but provides much
> more interesting player-related context for even the simplest
> menu-driven interactions.
I'm not convinced.
Many text MUDs had two modes: long descriptions and short descriptions.
The standard practice was for players to turn on long descriptions only
when exploring a new area, but to otherwise play with the faster and
more efficient short descriptions (even if they were on fast
connections). This was true even on the games that dynamically
generated or customised the long descriptions. As such they sacrificed
emotive richness and presentation quality for goal efficiency. There
are/were (partial) exceptions like Raph's Legend where long descriptions
were often structurally necessary for effective ongoing play, but I'd
argue that they're contrived examples where necessary datacomms were
inlined with the long descriptions to enforce long descriptions rather
than being a quality explicitly selected by players.
Coming from the other side the ideal form would be to have capable
actresses and actors taking the roles of NPCs with solid character
definitions etc. The (only) reason we don't due this is that the
economics are prohibitive. Ergo, we try and simulate humanity through
computation in the form of NPCs. I don't see that the simulation has
intrinsic value.
At root the problem would seem to be a dichotomy in player goals;
parallel to the description length field choices: the tourists who are
there for the experience/ride, and the achievers (only partly
Bartle-sense) who are there to accomplish named and known goals.
Tourists seem to correlate highly with high socialiser quotients, and to
a large extent play for the turgid feedback loops of human emotion and
reaction among the players as set against the game backdrop/scenery.
(cf roleplaying) Conversely, in the most extreme form the GoP players
like the thematic flavour (cf spice in food), but the shortest route to
the cheese comes first and drives visible motivation and activity.
Between such audiences the rich NPC characters are scenery for the
social tourists, acting more as catalysts and stage props for the human
interactions they seek, and for the GoP players the rich NPCs are
annoyingly detailed and complex barriers in forming their optimised
route to the cheese. This latter is especially true in the case of
treadmills where repetition plays such a large role.
Its very easy to get hooked up in the concept of a virtual world. The
intellectual delight and attraction of such concepts are huge.
Engineers especially take an almost masturbatory intellectual delight in
trying to assemble a virtual world which fully simulates everything from
the physics models to the social structures, societies and individuals
in them. "But of course that's also what the whole world wants! Isn't
it just obvious? Its just so cool! Look, there are real NPC people
with real believable NPC relationships and prejudices, and real clouds
in the sky and real deer in the fields that breed and have real baby
deer!" The very definition of engineer-toy cool! The intellectual
attraction is huge. The problem is that I've yet to see players that
actually want that as revealed by the choices they make as players.
Sure, they may say they want that, and reviewers in magazines may
comment admiringly on those points, but I haven't watched a player yet
who actually played in a manner which functionally showed that they
valued that detail and verisimilitude and would make choices which would
maximise those values at the cost of others. Instead we seem to either
have scenery for human relations (deer == cute forest scene for acting),
or targets for goal acquisition (deer == kill == food and XP).
Perhaps Nicole Lazarro can comment on the player observations here?
Note, this doesn't meant that players will turn off the rich content.
Heck no. I'm not talking about graphics quality or music, or other
ambiance items. I'm referring specifically to simulated identities
(humans, AI, etc). I haven't seen a case where a player, given a
choice, doesn't effectively short circuit the expensive AI into either a
cute scenery or vending machine structure.
Or, perhaps more simply:
From the player perspective in terms of the actual goals that player
can be _seen_ to pursue (social, cultural, in-game, etc), what is the
actual function of an NPC?
If form follows function, then NPCs should be defined by the value
systems they satisfy for players. Not the value systems we think
players have, or the value systems that we think are cute, fuzzy,
attractive, neat etc, but the ones that actually generate and maintain
player value and interest.
--
J C Lawrence
---------(*) Satan, oscillate my metallic sonatas.
claw@kanga.nu He lived as a devil, eh?
http://www.kanga.nu/~claw/ Evil is a name of a foeman, as I live. - believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Robert Zubek
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Samantha LeCraft
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Douglas Goodall
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Hulbert, Leland
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Samantha LeCraft
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Paolo Piselli
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Byron Ellacott
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Buehler
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Buehler
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Sam Mason
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Arras
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Skane2004@aol.com
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Malcolm W. Tester II
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Otis Viles
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Sarah J. Blake
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Fred Snyder
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Zach Collins {Siege}
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Sean Middleditch
- MEDIA: Virtual Dopers Crave High Scores J C Lawrence
- MEDIA: Virtual Dopers Crave High Scores David Kennerly
- MEDIA: Virtual Dopers Crave High Scores David Heyman
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Crime and Punishment Matt Mihaly
- DESIGN: Crime and Punishment J C Lawrence
- DESIGN: Crime and Punishment Ghilardi Filippo
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Douglas Goodall
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Buehler
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Tracy Lee
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Mathieu Castelli
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Mathieu Castelli
- China practically bans online gaming? Sulka Haro
- China practically bans online gaming Sulka Haro
- SOCIAL MEDIA: California Law Review: The Laws of Virtual Worlds J C Lawrence
- playing the mob (was: believable NPCs) ceo
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Yumiko
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? John Buehler
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? vlad cole
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Brandon J. Van Every
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Brandon J. Van Every
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Tess Lowe
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Tess Snider
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Peter Keeler
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? John Arras
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Tess Lowe
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matthew Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Malcolm W. Tester II
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matthew Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Malcolm W. Tester II
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? ghovs
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? ren@aldermangroup.com