May 2004
- Thief class (was: MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23) Ghilardi Filippo
- Levels, classes and choice cruise
- Levels, classes and choice Sean Howard
- R: Playing catch-up with levels Ghilardi Filippo
- R: Levels, classes and choice Ghilardi Filippo
- R: Levels, classes and choice Byron Ellacott
- What is an RPG? [Was: Playing catch-up with levels] Sean Middleditch
- What is an RPG? [Was: Playing catch-up with levels] Darksuit
- What is an RPG? [Was: Playing catch-up with levels] Sean Middleditch
- What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
From Sean Middleditch:
>>> Why not dump the whole level thing altogether? Every character
>>> is equal from the time they start to the time they quit.
>> It isn't really an RPG at this point, is it? Now you've got an
>> First Person Shooter- possibly modifier to third person or to
>> swords/spells isntead of guns.
Here are some random thoughts that look at levelling in a different
light:
When Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson(sp?) added levels to Chainmail,
why did they do it? My guess is this: Assume that fighters start
out at skill level where it's a challenge to kill an orc. Players
spend several adventuring sessions killing orcs and kobalds, which
eventually gets boring. They want a change in "scenery". However,
if their fighters retains the same skill level, the players
certainly can't attack a dragon, or even a troll. Therefore,
Gygax added levelling so that PCs gets stronger over time,
allowing them to kill stronger and stronger monsters, which
coincidentally means new content. Players first kill a few hundred
orcs, get bored of that, graduate to killing a few hundred
hobgoblins, get bored, graduate to trolls, dragons, etc. Levels
were set far enough apart so that content (monster types) could be
re-used, but not so far apart that players would get completely
sick of the current content (having to kill thousands of orcs).
=> Levelling is a rationalized way of controlling content
flow. As your character's level increases the content changes.
However, Gygax could have used other mechanisms, such as every
hour of play automagically causes a level up, or money causes a
level up, or levelling is really a matter of how good a weapon you
have (FPS appraoch). Gygax chose killing monsters (and gold
acquisition) to affect levelling because it's similar to the real
world where practice makes perfect.
=> Levelling based on practice-makes-perfect and training
(gold). It makes intuitive sense, not necessarily game sense.
That's basically why face-to-face RPG has levelling.
In a virtual world, levelling has other implications:
For one, the level of the character has retention value for the
player, since the more powerful/rare/effort a PC is, the less
willing someone is to give it up. (Level doesn't have retention
value in face-to-face games because if a 10th level PC dies, the
GM usually replaces it with an equivalent, or slightly lower,
level PC. However, players still don't like to see their favorite
characters die.)
=> Retention value for virtual world.
And some other aspects:
=> Metric of how well the player is doing (gold could do just as
well)
=> Higher level characters are able to more easily kill/grief
lower level characters.
=> Levelling as a payment that encourages players to perform
certain activities - This is used in face-to-face RPG as a
penality, whereby the PC loses a level if they change alignment.
=> Others? I can't think of any, but I'm sure there are few
more.
Now that I've listed why levels are useful in a CRPG game, I'll
discuss some points:
-- "Higher level characters are able to more easily kill/grief
lower level characters" - This is a problem. It's a very big
problem for games don't have PC death, since in a death-less world
the character's level is approximately equal to the amount of time
the player spends in the game killing things. (Player skill can
increase the rate of advancement, but level is fundamentally based
on time-in-game spent killing things.) Hence, any PvP is a
function of how much time the two combatants have spent playing
the game. Higher levels (more time in game) beat lower levels
(less time in game). Player skill is a secondary consideration.
This system is a geritocracy where the old rule, the young are
trodden upon ,and the skilled are ignored. A meritocracy would be
more fair and probably produce a better game; it certainly
produces better governments.
A meritocracy can be created if PC death is added, since all PCs
will eventually die and force the player to restart. The more
skilled players will manage to get higher level characters
(somewhat) quicker, and keep them alive longer than the less
skilled players. However, PC death has other well-known negative
ramifications. (I'm not necessarily an advocate of PC death, just
pointing out a problem that occurs with not having it.)
A merticracy might be created without resorting PC death, but I
can't think of a way (at the moment).
-- "Retention value for virtual world" - This makes sense for
business reasons, but it's a poor solution. A virtual world should
be fun to be in for its own sake, and shouldn't try to trap
players into staying. But then again, world peace would be a nice
thing, but it ain't gonna happen.
-- "Metric" and "Payment to encourage players" - These can be
achieved through other means than just levels. Money works very
well, so does property, social status, etc.
The two remaining reasons for levelling are "levelling as a way to
control content flow" and "practice-makes-perfect theory"...
-- "Practice makes perfect" - The obvious alternatives to
practice-makes-perfect are "pay for advancement", or "advance by
finding better weapons/armor". These encourage twinking though,
and twinking usually isn't good for gameplay reasons.
Alternatively, PCs could level based on the player's time in the
game, but then people would log on for 24/7 and do nothing.
Another solution is for PCs to level based on content
milestones... once the PC gets to the end of dungeon #1 he
advances to level 2. To get to level 3 the PC must get all the way
through dungeon #2, etc. This might make more gameplay sense,
since it ensures that PCs entering dungeon #2 has gone through
dungeon #1 and are skilled enough to get through. It may not make
much intuitive sense. It also removes any choice the player has
about which content to enjoy.
Are there others? Maybe. I can't think of any at the moment.
Practice-makes-perfect seems to be the best solution.
-- "Levelling as a way to control content flow" - This ensures
that users consume content in a measured amount, rather than
gulping it all down at once. If content can be consumed too
quickly, players will do so, and they'll "finish" the game feeling
unfilfilled. If it takes too long to progress through the content,
players will complain about "the levelling treadmill" and get
frustrated.
There are other ways to control the rate of content usage besides
levelling:
- TV manages content usage by putting out an hourly episode
every week. Games could restrict players to a few hours of
content a week, the rest is limited to chatting.
- A corallary to a weekly episode is to take real-time to
accomplish some tasks. IE: Travel between dungeon #1 and dungeon
#2 takes 24 hours of real time, so the player might as well log
out. All CRPGs use a minor form of this because it takes real
time (approx 30 sec.) to heal up after a battle.
- Puzzles - as in adventure games. But, many people (especially
those wanting to get a higher level so they can kill/grief other
players) will cheat and use walkthroughs
- Others? I can't think of any at the moment, but they must
exist.
(Note: If levelling is used as a way to control content flow then
PC death is a bad idea because when a PC dies, the player will
have to re-experience the same content over again. This is
boring. One solution is that on PC death, either drop the current
character down a few levels, or if a new character is begun, it
advances quickly (2x as fast?) until it reaches the player's old
character level.)
What does all this mean? I haven't revealed any new solutions to
levelling, but hopefully my digression will encourage people to
think what role levelling has in gameplay, and why it's there in the
first place.
Mike Rozak
http://www.mxac.com.au - What is an RPG? Threshold RPG
- What is an RPG? Byron Ellacott
- What is an RPG? Amanda Walker
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? rick cronan
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? rick cronan
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Freeman, Jeff
- SOC ANNOUNCE: Research project into Social Interactions in MMORPG field, need help PMooney@peddie.org
- Multiplayer Game Logic System sszretter
- Multiplayer Game Logic System Douglas Goodall
- Multiplayer Game Logic System Mike Rozak
- [SOC] A letter: Dear MMOG Corey Crawford
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Freeman, Jeff
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Jeff Fuller
- More on levels, was What is an RPG? Mike Rozak
- Reminder: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Amanda Walker
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Alex Chacha
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Jason Downs
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Online adventure games J C Lawrence
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Fred Snyder
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Fred Snyder
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Steven King
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Amanda Walker
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Alex Chacha
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Tracy Lee
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Mike Rozak
- DESIGN: Online adventure games J C Lawrence
- DESIGN: Online adventure games Malcolm W. Tester II
- MEDIA: Puzzle Pirates wins Webby J C Lawrence
- NEWS: Online Economies Brian Thyer
- IRC Channels for Virtual Worlds Discussion Matt Wilson
- Natural Language Generation Tiago Carita
- Natural Language Generation Eric Rhea
- Natural Language Generation Douglas Goodall
- Natural Language Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Natural Language Generation mugginsm@under-the-fridge.com
- Natural Language Generation Michael "Flury" Chui
- Natural Language Generation Sean Middleditch
- Natural Language Generation blizzard36_2002@yahoo.com
- Natural Language Generation Steven King
- Natural Language Generation Michael "Flury" Chui
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Robert Zubek
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Malcolm W. Tester II
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Robert Zubek
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Samantha LeCraft
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Douglas Goodall
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Hulbert, Leland
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Samantha LeCraft
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Paolo Piselli
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Byron Ellacott
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Buehler
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) J C Lawrence
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Buehler
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Sam Mason
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Arras
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Skane2004@aol.com
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Malcolm W. Tester II
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Otis Viles
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Sarah J. Blake
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Fred Snyder
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Zach Collins {Siege}
- DGN: Rooms, Directions, etc. - any alternatives? Sean Middleditch
- MEDIA: Virtual Dopers Crave High Scores J C Lawrence
- MEDIA: Virtual Dopers Crave High Scores David Kennerly
- MEDIA: Virtual Dopers Crave High Scores David Heyman
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Malcolm W. Tester II
- DESIGN: Crime and Punishment Matt Mihaly
- DESIGN: Crime and Punishment J C Lawrence
- DESIGN: Crime and Punishment Ghilardi Filippo
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Douglas Goodall
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) John Buehler
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Tracy Lee
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Michael Sellers
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Matt Mihaly
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Amanda Walker
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Freeman, Jeff
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Mathieu Castelli
- believable NPCs (was Natural Language Generation) Mathieu Castelli
- China practically bans online gaming? Sulka Haro
- China practically bans online gaming Sulka Haro
- SOCIAL MEDIA: California Law Review: The Laws of Virtual Worlds J C Lawrence
- playing the mob (was: believable NPCs) ceo
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Yumiko
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? John Buehler
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? vlad cole
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Brandon J. Van Every
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Brandon J. Van Every
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Tess Lowe
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Tess Snider
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Peter Keeler
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? John Arras
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matt Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Tess Lowe
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matthew Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Kwon J. Ekstrom
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Malcolm W. Tester II
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Matthew Mihaly
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? Malcolm W. Tester II
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? ghovs
- BIZ: Ban selling of in-game items for real cash? ren@aldermangroup.com