April 2004
- [BIZ] Playas Pay to Spread the Luv Michael Tresca
- Mogi from Newtgames Olivier Lejade
- Client side simulation dienw
- Client side simulation Nate Combs {Home}
- Client side simulation Thomas Tomiczek
- Client side simulation Amanda Walker
- Client side simulation Artur Biesiadowski
- Client side simulation Byron Ellacott
- [Devops] Initial meoww cleanup J C Lawrence
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Michael Sellers
- Announcement: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
- Middleware ceo
- [NEWS] Final Fantasy XI debut on PS2 in US kennerly@sfsu.edu
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Joshua Hughes
- Random Placename Generation Ben Hawes
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Mike Rozak
- Middleware Luca Girardo
- Habitat Redux Mirjam Eladhari
- MUD-Dev Convention Report David Kennerly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Michael Sellers
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Licensed setting MMOGs Taylor Daynes
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- Dangers of Middleware Mike Rozak
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Marian Griffith
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Stone, Jason
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (the firstone:)) Thomas Tomiczek
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone:)) David Kennerly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John MacQueen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Travis Casey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Kevin N Shallow
- Paranoia Ragnar Lonn
- Player Justice Amanda Walker
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Less constrained environments Chris Duesing
- Less constrained environments John MacQueen
- MMOG money-making clients ceo
- MMOG money-making clients Koster, Raph
- MMOG money-making clients Valerio Santinelli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Thomas Tomiczek
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Steven King
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Miller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Chris Duesing
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server andGordon's10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Matt Chatterley
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Tess Snider
- Gay Characters in Videogames Darksuit
- Gay Characters in Videogames Matt Mihaly
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Jon A. Lambert
- Gay Characters in Videogames matt@ironrealms.com
- Gay Characters in Videogames Douglas Goodall
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 kihyun {GTA Interactive}
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Licensed setting MMOGs Ian McDonald
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ryan S. Dancey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- R: [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ghilardi Filippo
- [BoardGameDesign] Fog of War (to Robert & dr1010xltd) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Online economies was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- PvP vs. PvE was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Jon A. Lambert
- Kaczynski's Law jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Kaczynski's Law Robert Flesch
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law J C Lawrence
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law cruise
- Kaczynski's Law Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Playing catch-up with levels [WAS Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy!] Byron Ellacott
- PvP vs. PvE Rob C
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Mirjam Eladhari
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC matt@ironrealms.com
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Luca Girardo
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Jonas Heide Smith
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Ren Reynolds
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Michael Sellers
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Ben Hawes
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Hulbert, Leland
- Playing catch-up with levels John Arras
- Playing catch-up with levels jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Stephen Routledge
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Lars Duening
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Jason Downs
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
Cruise writes:
> John Buehler wrote:
>> I used to be in the "use it or lose it" camp. I even have a
>> primitive skill system simulator lying around somewhere that
>> includes an atrophy mechanism. There are a few problems with
>> such systems.
>> 1. The automatic rebalancing of skills is defined by the
>> software, not the player. If I do nothing but practice short
>> sword, all other skills will fall by the wayside. But the
>> player might well have wanted to sacrifice the magical skills
>> that they had accumulated. Just as likely is the possibility
>> that the player wanted to switch from longsword to short sword.
>> And that leads into the second problem.
>> 2. A player is obligated to keep using skills that they want
>> available, even if they're not interested in actively using
>> them. A solution to this is "offline activities" where when
>> the player is away, the character makes sure that it practices
>> certain skills. That's the same problem as setting up a set of
>> skills that the player wants to retain, and the level at which
>> they want to retain them.
> Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but I don't see this as a
> problem. It's logical, surely, to expect a character to not be as
> skilled at something they don't do very often? Naturally, for
> skills which are occasional use skills by their nature, the decay
> rate is tweaked appropriately. Likewise, if I do nothing but
> practice shortsword, again it's reasonable to assume everything
> else is weaker. Naturally, this incrase and decrease is not linear
> - lower levels increase quicker, higher levels degrade quicker -
> so it's easy to pick up a skill to an adequate level and keep it
> there, but to be absolutely king of the hill requires time and
> focus, as you'd expect.
The goal of a game is to entertain. It's the reason that when a
character is killed, it is recovered in some way so that it can be
used again. That doesn't match expectations, but it sure is
entertaining.
By the same metric, I don't believe that it's going to match
players' desires to atrophy all accumulated skills while only one or
two are employed. Because it doesn't match their desires, and
because there is nothing inherently entertaining about losing
skills. A conscious tradeoff? Sure. But a lack of control over
which skills are sacrificed? No.
Further, we are making different assumptions about the sort of
entertainment being provided through the skill system. You make
mention of the desire to be king of the hill through time and focus.
I'm not interested in systems that even invite a king of the hill
mentality. The downsides to that sort of entertainment on the
internet are too great.
I'm perfectly content in letting a player create the toughest,
meanest swordsman in the game with the touch of a button (and a
7-day waiting period). After all, he paid his money. He should be
able to experience all that the game has to offer. If he wants to
go up against another perfect warrior, then it'll be a case of their
skills as players instead of who plays more or who spend more money
on equipment.
The compulsion aspect might be natural for a lot of gamers today. I
choose to try to eliminate it. I want players to come back and play
my game because they enjoy it, not because they're afraid they'll
lose the race to get their skills up.
>> 3. Not all skills are suited to "use it or lose it" approaches.
>> Skills that do not involve a physical object are going to have
>> to be dealt with in some way, and that will break the
>> "non-existent interface" model. Players will have to
>> understand that the skill exists so that they can tell their
>> character to do it. Of course, the game could just ensure that
>> every skill involves an object unique to that skill. So ivory
>> wands would only cast one type of spell. Ebony another, etc.
> Not necessarily - simply moving increases the "hiking" skill (by
> tiny amounts), so that movement slowly becomes more
> efficient. There is no command or physical object to interact
> with, just an action that improves an underlying skill. The skill
> won't be mentioned anywhere. But those players who do a lot of
> exploring (a typical "ranger" character), will be able to move
> much further for longer.
How would you tackle magical spells? Or are you relying on the fact
that players already expect to have to learn the "magic system" as
they do in other games?
>> "Use it or lose it" goes a certain distance and solves certain
>> problems. It's a good approach. But I believe that there are
>> other ways of solving the problems of a large skill system than
>> "use it or lose it". It may well be that "use it or lose it"
>> could be a first-cut presentation of what I'm talking about, with
>> other ways of presenting the more extensive capabilities.
> I'm sure there are many, many solutions to such a problem. Why
> this attracts me is because it so intuitive. It's how we expect
> things to work from real-life.
Well, kinda sorta. The atrophy process isn't how stuff works in
real life. Once we learn something and then stop using it, we get
rusty, but the ability doesn't fade. The next time we approach the
skill, we recover the expertise very rapidly.
Doing that in a game predicated on achievement would be suicide.
Old characters would have experienced every skill in the game and
would be able to recover their proficiency in the skill in a very
short time.
So if I walk from Washington, D.C. to San Francisco I'm not going to
atrophy my skill as a software engineer or as a writer. Or as
anything else, except perhaps as a weight lifter. Physical atrophy
takes place, but our knowledge just doesn't work that way.
>> By the way, unless all skills have the same cost of learning,
>> there is an element of "classness" to all skill systems. My own
>> skill systems tend to make magical skills more costly than
>> mundane ones. That's an element of "classness".
> But are your magic skills proportionally more useful? Otherwise,
> as someone else (sorry) mentioned before, no one will bother to
> learn them once they work out that sword-fighting is quicker and
> easier to learn.
The purpose of increasing the cost of magic skills is to require
characters to quickly specialize if they want to pursue advanced
magic. With weapons, the cost is reduced so that a greater breadth
of weapons and moves can be accumulated.
At the same time, the higher cost does tend to keep the masses away
from magic. Raising the cost of magic skills relative to melee
skills encourages a greater number of melee characters at any one
time. Everyone can fool with every skill, but magic will only
really appeal to a certain segment of the population.
In the case of my magic system, the skills themselves are devoid of
killing power. So those who are into personal power must use a
sword. Magic is more about influencing situations than controlling
them.
But as usual, I'm getting way off the original topic of "Playing
catch-up with levels".
JB - Playing catch-up with levels Chris Duesing
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Harrok
- Playing catch-up with levels Valerio Santinelli
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff Fuller
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Edward Glowacki
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Ian McDonald
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Pileborg Joachim - FMT
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency sziisoft
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency cruise
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Steven King
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Adam Helps
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Brian Thyer
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Castronova, Edward
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Alistair Milne
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency brian@thyer.net
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Arkitan Plu
- Story Generators Douglas Goodall
- ADMIN Changes to the list page J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Chanur Silvarian
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeremy Gaffney
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Threshold RPG
- Bringing in friends Pat Ditterline
- Bringing in friends Amanda Walker
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... ceo
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Freeman, Jeff
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Sean Howard
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Mike Rozak
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Nathan Yospe
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23 Alex Chacha
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler