April 2004
- [BIZ] Playas Pay to Spread the Luv Michael Tresca
- Mogi from Newtgames Olivier Lejade
- Client side simulation dienw
- Client side simulation Nate Combs {Home}
- Client side simulation Thomas Tomiczek
- Client side simulation Amanda Walker
- Client side simulation Artur Biesiadowski
- Client side simulation Byron Ellacott
- [Devops] Initial meoww cleanup J C Lawrence
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Michael Sellers
- Announcement: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
- Middleware ceo
- [NEWS] Final Fantasy XI debut on PS2 in US kennerly@sfsu.edu
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Joshua Hughes
- Random Placename Generation Ben Hawes
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Mike Rozak
- Middleware Luca Girardo
- Habitat Redux Mirjam Eladhari
- MUD-Dev Convention Report David Kennerly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Michael Sellers
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Licensed setting MMOGs Taylor Daynes
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- Dangers of Middleware Mike Rozak
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Marian Griffith
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Stone, Jason
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (the firstone:)) Thomas Tomiczek
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone:)) David Kennerly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John MacQueen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Travis Casey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Kevin N Shallow
- Paranoia Ragnar Lonn
- Player Justice Amanda Walker
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Less constrained environments Chris Duesing
- Less constrained environments John MacQueen
- MMOG money-making clients ceo
- MMOG money-making clients Koster, Raph
- MMOG money-making clients Valerio Santinelli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Thomas Tomiczek
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Steven King
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Miller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Chris Duesing
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server andGordon's10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Matt Chatterley
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Tess Snider
- Gay Characters in Videogames Darksuit
- Gay Characters in Videogames Matt Mihaly
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Jon A. Lambert
- Gay Characters in Videogames matt@ironrealms.com
- Gay Characters in Videogames Douglas Goodall
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 kihyun {GTA Interactive}
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Licensed setting MMOGs Ian McDonald
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ryan S. Dancey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- R: [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ghilardi Filippo
- [BoardGameDesign] Fog of War (to Robert & dr1010xltd) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Online economies was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- PvP vs. PvE was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Jon A. Lambert
- Kaczynski's Law jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Kaczynski's Law Robert Flesch
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law J C Lawrence
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law cruise
- Kaczynski's Law Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Playing catch-up with levels [WAS Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy!] Byron Ellacott
- PvP vs. PvE Rob C
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Mirjam Eladhari
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC matt@ironrealms.com
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Luca Girardo
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Jonas Heide Smith
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Ren Reynolds
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Michael Sellers
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Ben Hawes
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Hulbert, Leland
- Playing catch-up with levels John Arras
- Playing catch-up with levels jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Stephen Routledge
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Lars Duening
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Jason Downs
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Chris Duesing
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Harrok
- Playing catch-up with levels Valerio Santinelli
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff Fuller
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Edward Glowacki
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Ian McDonald
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Pileborg Joachim - FMT
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
From: Freeman, Jeff
> From: Matt Chatterley
>> Does this added complexity add anything to the model, or not?
>> Now the DG players can sell to two buyers, and if they were to
>> work harder and produce more dough, they could sell more,
> I don't think this additional level of complexity is useful.
> Bakers are still Cookie-makers. Abstracting the model to this
> level, we're better off just considering them all CO's regardless
> what they really (virtually, hypothetically) make. You might get
> *some* more cookie-makers by extending the choices, depth and
> interest of the level, but probably not that many more.
Agreed. Another possible outcome which I didn't consider is the risk
that one particular 'finished product' is better than the others in
some way (less coins per energy point restored, for instance), and
players will all migrate to that product and shun the others - this
would require balance adjustment, or perhaps making crafting more
complex.
If crafters can vary the 'recipe' which they follow to maximize
different attributes of their product, competitiveness is inspired
far more - if bread was more attractive than cookies because it cost
less per energy point, you could maximize the energy value of your
cookies (at the cost of another attribute such as shelf-life) and so
forth, as well as simply dropping the price.
>> increasing their profits (probably accumulating money
>> themselves); the CH players do not have this luxury, and have
>> only one outlet for their goods.
> Even if they could work harder and sell more dough, their profits
> (coming from COs) are the cookie makers costs. Cookies are just
> going to increase in price to cover that, the COs still make all
> the money.
Also agreed :). No matter what the gatherers do, they'll always be
lower down the economic food chain than the crafters above them, and
in this particular model, they're buying back the finished product
as well - and if the model were such that cookies provide energy,
players use energy collecting resources therefore a player who
collects more resources has to buy more cookies, they're in a quite
vicious circle.
This doesn't of course mean that they'll have NO inactive money, or
no money to spend - but they will certainly have less than those
above them.
> But in reality, I don't think would happen. I think they would
> work harder and sell more dough, for less money. The price of
> cookies would drop, based on the resource being cheaper.
Quite possibly.
>> Assuming that the sinks/faucets are appropriately serviced, and
>> no potential gain is "excessive" compared to others, I don't see
>> anything wrong with this.
> I suspect that the higher up you go, the higher the rate of
> conversion from active to inactive cash you'll find.
Definitely. If the model were more complicated, with wood-choppers
selling logs to sawmills who sold planks to table-makers, the
table-makers would have more inactive cash than the sawmills, who
would have more than the wood-choppers - if you consider active cash
as a percentage of the gross, so to speak. A sawmill might process
wood from 10 wood-choppers and sell to a dozen table-makers, having
a huge turn over of cash, but far more of a table-makers cash
reserves would be inactive.
>> What it suggests to me is: There must be other outlets for
>> money. Better ovens. Bigger shops, a larger wheelbarrow to carry
>> choccie chips in - whatever it is, things such as upgrades will,
>> if made available, encourage the richer players to re-invest
>> their 'inactive cash', putting it back into circulation.
> True, but in the real world investment means risk. Players will
> demand a garuanteed return on their investment, with no risk or
> potential for loss. They'll put the money back into the system
> (such as when they buy dough or chips), but only with the complete
> assurance that they'll get it back later, plus a little more.
Yup. Someone else has commented on this, I'm sure - it's not the
real world, and you can't really apply 'reality' to a game, because
they players are there to get away from their real lives. They don't
want to put their playing time into endeavors which can fail.
Within the concept I'm currently working on - a trading based game,
things are a little different, because without the possibility of
making a loss, half of the fun is gone - part of the point is that
gamble. However, it's not a game which will foster the attachment to
characters which all players develop in games which are more
strongly based around 'role playing' - it won't be an ongoing world
for instance, it'll more likely consist of 2-3 month long "games"
within a set of rules, with everyone starting over fresh at the end
(and winners being announced, etc).
Some steps can be made to introduce abstract costs, though, such as
wear and tear on equipment - if your oven will wear out after 1000
cookies, but a better one will do 1500 cookies (and cost 1.4x as
much), then given enough money, you'll go for the better
oven. However, this sort of approach rewards richer players, and
those with inactive cash - as they are able to reduce their costs by
using their inactive money. As you say though - at the end of the
day, they get a guaranteed return - an improvement in their profits,
and will make their money back eventually.
>> Blurring the distinctive hierarchy above might change the
>> situation too, but I haven't really thought that through enough -
>> however, what about adding the 'wholesaler' in, someone who buys
>> cookies and dough in bulk from the gatherers, and then sells it
>> on to bakers/cookie makers - covering the costs of storing and
>> transporting the goods?
> It seems that adding more levels like this is a good thing, in
> that it spreads-out the amount of cash being converted to inactive
> a bit more.
> It's still being converted to inactive cash, but more people have
> a chunk of it than in the 2-tier model.
Yeah. That was the point I was heading towards - having the inactive
cash isn't necessarily a bad thing, but having it all pooled by a
small group of players certainly is.
> Also, I think we've been overlooking the role of taxes in wealth
> re-distribution (in the real world, that is).
> So offline we have banks and other investments, risk, taxes and so
> on to redistribute wealth, but online we have none of these
> things, and the players would probably hate it if we did.
> Kind of thinking about the idea of 'virtual investments' which
> don't return any money to the investor, but instead buy the
> crafter his advancement in the system. So we tell the crafter
> that he's still got that money - hasn't spent it, and it's all his
> and 100% safe - but he can't spend it unless he's willing to
> sacrifice his advancement.
Hmm. Interesting. Abstract costs and investments are definitely one
way to go - for instance if there were a guild of cookie-makers, a
player might invest vast amounts of their inactive cash in efforts
to become the guild leader (or one of the guild council), so that
they can gain a different advantage - rather than just being able to
make more cookies, they could get a hand in the overall price of
cookies, who is allowed to sell cookies and where, etc.
All interesting stuff. :)
Cheers,
Matt
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency sziisoft
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency cruise
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Steven King
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Adam Helps
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- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Brian Thyer
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Castronova, Edward
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Alistair Milne
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency brian@thyer.net
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Arkitan Plu
- Story Generators Douglas Goodall
- ADMIN Changes to the list page J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Chanur Silvarian
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeremy Gaffney
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Threshold RPG
- Bringing in friends Pat Ditterline
- Bringing in friends Amanda Walker
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... ceo
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Freeman, Jeff
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Sean Howard
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Mike Rozak
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Nathan Yospe
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23 Alex Chacha
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
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- Playing catch-up with levels Ola Fosheim Grøstad
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- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler