April 2004
- [BIZ] Playas Pay to Spread the Luv Michael Tresca
- Mogi from Newtgames Olivier Lejade
- Client side simulation dienw
- Client side simulation Nate Combs {Home}
- Client side simulation Thomas Tomiczek
- Client side simulation Amanda Walker
- Client side simulation Artur Biesiadowski
- Client side simulation Byron Ellacott
- [Devops] Initial meoww cleanup J C Lawrence
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Michael Sellers
- Announcement: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
- Middleware ceo
- [NEWS] Final Fantasy XI debut on PS2 in US kennerly@sfsu.edu
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Joshua Hughes
- Random Placename Generation Ben Hawes
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Mike Rozak
- Middleware Luca Girardo
- Habitat Redux Mirjam Eladhari
- MUD-Dev Convention Report David Kennerly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Michael Sellers
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Licensed setting MMOGs Taylor Daynes
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- Dangers of Middleware Mike Rozak
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Marian Griffith
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Stone, Jason
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (the firstone:)) Thomas Tomiczek
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone:)) David Kennerly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John MacQueen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Travis Casey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Kevin N Shallow
- Paranoia Ragnar Lonn
- Player Justice Amanda Walker
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Less constrained environments Chris Duesing
- Less constrained environments John MacQueen
- MMOG money-making clients ceo
- MMOG money-making clients Koster, Raph
- MMOG money-making clients Valerio Santinelli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Thomas Tomiczek
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Steven King
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Miller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Chris Duesing
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server andGordon's10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Matt Chatterley
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Tess Snider
- Gay Characters in Videogames Darksuit
- Gay Characters in Videogames Matt Mihaly
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Jon A. Lambert
- Gay Characters in Videogames matt@ironrealms.com
- Gay Characters in Videogames Douglas Goodall
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 kihyun {GTA Interactive}
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Licensed setting MMOGs Ian McDonald
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ryan S. Dancey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- R: [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ghilardi Filippo
- [BoardGameDesign] Fog of War (to Robert & dr1010xltd) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Online economies was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- PvP vs. PvE was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Jon A. Lambert
- Kaczynski's Law jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Kaczynski's Law Robert Flesch
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law J C Lawrence
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law cruise
- Kaczynski's Law Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Playing catch-up with levels [WAS Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy!] Byron Ellacott
- PvP vs. PvE Rob C
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Mirjam Eladhari
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC matt@ironrealms.com
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Luca Girardo
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Jonas Heide Smith
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Ren Reynolds
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Michael Sellers
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Ben Hawes
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Hulbert, Leland
- Playing catch-up with levels John Arras
- Playing catch-up with levels jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Stephen Routledge
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Lars Duening
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Jason Downs
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Chris Duesing
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Harrok
- Playing catch-up with levels Valerio Santinelli
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff Fuller
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Edward Glowacki
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Ian McDonald
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Pileborg Joachim - FMT
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency sziisoft
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency cruise
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Steven King
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Adam Helps
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Brian Thyer
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Castronova, Edward
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
--- "Freeman, Jeff" <jfreeman@soe.sony.com> wrote:
> As I understand it, when a person put money in the bank in the
> real world, the bank then lends that money to other people, so it
> never really 'leaves the system.' But in an online economy money
> put in the bank is removed from circulation: It could re-enter the
> system later, but it might not do that for a very long time.
In Economics, there is the circular flow model. Savings is
considered a leakage from the circular flow, and loans are
considered an injection. Savings is, simply, any income that is not
spent. In MUD terms, the faucet-drain model is a simplification of
the circular flow model.
Savings in the faucet-drain model is no different from savings in
the circular flow model. I think you are mainly pointing out the
lack of similar injections (ie. loans) in the faucet-drain models in
current MUDs as the main difference from today's economy.
> For that matter, even money which 'leaves the system' due to an
> inactive account could re-enter the system some day, should the
> person ever re-activate their account.
This is still considered savings.
> What I think would be more useful to us would be to track economic
> activity. My thinking here is that money changing hands
> frequently is the sign of a healthy economy, whereas a lack of
> economic activity is the sign of a weak economy.
Money changing hands indicates an -active- economy but is not a
single indicator of an "healthy" economy. For example, in a failing
economy, sellers may rush to liquidate assets for pennies on the
dollar; numbers of transactions has increased, but the economy is
failing. I think what you are getting at is more, perhaps, that
strong activity is a prerequisite to a strong economy.
> I think anything which stymies economic activity is bad, and
> either extreme of inflation (too much or too little) would result
> in fewer transactions and a 'weak economy'.
Let's say, for example, you have an extreme demand-pull inflation
condition; demand-pull inflation meaning too much money chasing too
few items, pulling the prices of items up. Normally, when people
face an extreme condition where the value of money is falling, they
convert their savings of money, which is declining in value, into an
object which better holds value in relation to money. Therefore,
fast rising inflation (money losing value) makes people want to get
rid of money, which may increase transactions in relation to when
the value of money is stable (all other things being equal). The
opposite case, extreme deflation, people hold on to money, as it
will be worth more in the future (and they may need it as the
economy shrinks along with their income). The important factor in
both these cases is expectation. If people can -see- the value
change, or expect it to, with reasonable certainty (whether correct
or not), they act in their best interest.
> In order to properly track their economy, we need to monitor
> transactions in both number and amount. I would consider money-in
> and money-out as a transaction, but player-to-player transactions
> ought to be of primary importance in a player-driven economy.
[snip]
> Could the number of transactions be more significant than the
> total amount of those transactions?
Take in consideration Fisher's Equation of Exchange, MV=PT. M is the
money supply, V is the velocity of circulation, P is average price,
and T is number of transactions. What you are asking is if T is more
significant than PT.
> Looking at online economies, do you think it important to look at
> it from the standpoint of active to inactive cash, or is inflation
> (or the ratio of money-in to money-out) the only economic
> indicator worth tracking?
If one is simply monitoring in-flow and out-flow, one is literally
looking at whether M is increasing (in > out), decreasing (in <
out), or staying the same (in = out). V and T are directly
proportional to your player-base (where S(t) is number of
simultaneous players given time t in hours for a given shard,
player-base P on the shard is the integration of S with respect to
t, or integration of Sdt over the time interval i-168 <= t <= i
which is one week). As the player-base increases, V and T should
increase. As the player-base decreases, V and T should decrease. To
track inflation is not to track total money (M) or the ratio of in
to out, but the average price of items, as inflation is literally a
sustained increase in the general price level. If you are monitoring
in-flow, out-flow, and player-base, you may have a good
understanding of the average price. If M is increasing (in > out),
and player-base decreases, meaning V and T will decrease, then P
will tend to increase.
The ratio of in to out (or expr(in/out)) is actually a measure of
leakage or injection. If in/out > 1, that's leakage. If in/out < 1,
that's injection. This is because the faucet-drain model is similar
to the circular flow model. In the circular flow model, households
buy from Product Markets which buys from Firms which buys from
Factor Markets which provides income to Households, closing the
circle. Leakages occur through taxes, interest, and
savings. Injections occur from payments, interest, dividends, and
loans. In a MUD, the Households are characters, which are buying
products from the NPC's (game engine and drain), and the mobs (game
engine and faucet) are providing loot to the characters. The drain
can be widened through item decay, hunger, death tax, item
destruction and cleanup, character deletion, etc. The faucet can be
widened through quests, and NPC's buying items from characters. The
in and out variables are actually monitoring the in and the out path
of households (characters) in the circular flow model, and thus
their ratio measuring injections and leakages for households.
But as the discussion is progressing, I see it moving toward
crafting, which is where characters creep into the other agents of
the circular flow model.
I've some thoughts on the whole matter, but I'll save it for another
post. I just wanted to add some economics vocabulary into the
discussion.
- Eric Random - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Alistair Milne
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency brian@thyer.net
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Arkitan Plu
- Story Generators Douglas Goodall
- ADMIN Changes to the list page J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Chanur Silvarian
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeremy Gaffney
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Threshold RPG
- Bringing in friends Pat Ditterline
- Bringing in friends Amanda Walker
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... ceo
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Freeman, Jeff
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Sean Howard
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Mike Rozak
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Nathan Yospe
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23 Alex Chacha
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler