April 2004
- [BIZ] Playas Pay to Spread the Luv Michael Tresca
- Mogi from Newtgames Olivier Lejade
- Client side simulation dienw
- Client side simulation Nate Combs {Home}
- Client side simulation Thomas Tomiczek
- Client side simulation Amanda Walker
- Client side simulation Artur Biesiadowski
- Client side simulation Byron Ellacott
- [Devops] Initial meoww cleanup J C Lawrence
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Michael Sellers
- Announcement: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
- Middleware ceo
- [NEWS] Final Fantasy XI debut on PS2 in US kennerly@sfsu.edu
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Joshua Hughes
- Random Placename Generation Ben Hawes
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Mike Rozak
- Middleware Luca Girardo
- Habitat Redux Mirjam Eladhari
- MUD-Dev Convention Report David Kennerly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Michael Sellers
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Licensed setting MMOGs Taylor Daynes
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- Dangers of Middleware Mike Rozak
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Marian Griffith
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Stone, Jason
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (the firstone:)) Thomas Tomiczek
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone:)) David Kennerly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John MacQueen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Travis Casey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Kevin N Shallow
- Paranoia Ragnar Lonn
- Player Justice Amanda Walker
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Less constrained environments Chris Duesing
- Less constrained environments John MacQueen
- MMOG money-making clients ceo
- MMOG money-making clients Koster, Raph
- MMOG money-making clients Valerio Santinelli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Thomas Tomiczek
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Steven King
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Miller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Chris Duesing
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server andGordon's10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Matt Chatterley
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Tess Snider
- Gay Characters in Videogames Darksuit
- Gay Characters in Videogames Matt Mihaly
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Jon A. Lambert
- Gay Characters in Videogames matt@ironrealms.com
- Gay Characters in Videogames Douglas Goodall
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 kihyun {GTA Interactive}
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Licensed setting MMOGs Ian McDonald
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ryan S. Dancey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- R: [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ghilardi Filippo
- [BoardGameDesign] Fog of War (to Robert & dr1010xltd) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Online economies was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- PvP vs. PvE was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Jon A. Lambert
- Kaczynski's Law jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Kaczynski's Law Robert Flesch
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law J C Lawrence
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law cruise
- Kaczynski's Law Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Playing catch-up with levels [WAS Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy!] Byron Ellacott
- PvP vs. PvE Rob C
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Mirjam Eladhari
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC matt@ironrealms.com
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Luca Girardo
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Jonas Heide Smith
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Ren Reynolds
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Michael Sellers
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Ben Hawes
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Hulbert, Leland
- Playing catch-up with levels John Arras
- Playing catch-up with levels jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Stephen Routledge
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Lars Duening
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
- Playing catch-up with levels Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Jason Downs
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Chris Duesing
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
- Playing catch-up with levels Harrok
- Playing catch-up with levels Valerio Santinelli
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff Fuller
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeff
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels cruise
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Edward Glowacki
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Ian McDonald
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Pileborg Joachim - FMT
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
Jeff Freeman writes:
> From: John Buehler
>> Jeff Freeman wrote:
>>> It seems to me that the problem there isn't the faucet at
>>> all. But how do you address it? All crafters will take any cost
>>> or drain that you throw at them and use that to establish a base
>>> price, charging everyone else that plus a little more, and
>>> therefore accumulate cash.
>> 1. Competition and anti-trust laws.
> This won't address the problem of cash 'pooling' on cookie-makers.
> Even with reasonable/fair prices, all the money in this example
> flows to them and stops. The only way to make money flow the other
> direction would be to force the cookie-makers to sell cookies for
> less than it costs to make them. I think players would refuse to do
> that.
Yeah, we don't want businesses to fold every time they start.
>> 2. Don't make cookies a mandatory consumable.
> I think that would only slow the rate at which money is flowing to
> them, since it'll swirl around a bit before it gets there.
Slowing is good. If we can push player businesses down to razor-thin
margins, then the pool size stays relatively small. After that, it's a
matter of coming up with incentives for the players to do something with
that cash.
Well, how about vanity purchases? Or just purely fun stuff? That will
cause players to spend their cash.
But, you immediately say, players will incorporate the cost of those things
into their prices. I disagree with that becuase these are truly
discretionary purchases. The other businesses may not place the
same value on those discretionary purchases. So he can drive his
prices lower than the guy who insists on keeping prices high enough
to support his mountain-climbing habit.
>> Consider the oil industry. Oil is the lifeblood of western
>> civilization. Without it, we're toast. There are only a few
>> companies that are cranking out petroleum products in volume. If
>> they acted in collusion, they could extort arbitrary amounts of
>> money from us. Except that we have laws against that sort of
>> thing, so theoretically they are in competition.
> Right, but if we pass laws that force them to sell oil for less
> than it costs to produce, they'll just quit doing it. What
> prevents them taking a lot of money out of the economy (making it
> inactive) is that they invest it (or bank it, and the banks loan
> it back out).
> Competition and anti-trust laws don't prevent them from making
> *some* profit. In a game, most of that profit would be converted
> to inactive currency. Essential acting as a drain, removing money
> from circulation.
All this is true, except for the implication that there isn't a way
to solve the pooling problem. It is discretionary expenditures that
make the difference. Players need to have things that they can buy,
organizations that they can give to, support and so on, that will
inspire them to spend their ready cash. If they are too flamboyant
with their spending, competition will kill them because they can't
just arbitrarily raise their prices.
>> Something that I want to stress is competition comes in many
>> ways. It's not just two companies making cookies head to head.
>> Cookies provide something to people. It might be the energy
>> boost. It might be social status. It might be taste. Whatever
>> it is, it might be something that can be provided by other goods
>> and services. So competing with cookie-makers for taste might be
>> the bread makers. Competing with cookie-makers for energy boosts
>> might be the chocolate-makers. Competing with the cookie-makers
>> for status might be the coffee shops. And so on.
> They're all still collectively, "where money ends up". And since
> we don't have banks re-investing the money, it's not just where
> money ends up, but where money *ends*. So instead of pooling on
> 15 cookie-makers, it pools on 5 cookie makers, 5 coffee-grinders
> and 5 bread-bakers. Competition and anti-trust rules can keep the
> prices reasonable, but it won't stop the money from flowing
> one-way, pooling, and going inactive.
Business is business. Money does flow out of a business again, of
course. Businesses have overheads, costs and so on. If these
outflows are not uniform everwhere and for everyone, there is
another challenge facing the businesses - optimizing their prices
versus their costs.
One business may have to operate at razor-thin margins because his
suppliers aren't as good as another business's. He can't raise his
prices because he has the same customers as the other business. And
so on.
> My conclusion: The Crafter in a game performs the role of economic
> drain, by removing money from circulation.
That's the same conclusion that the designer of every game I've ever
played has come to. I don't care for the economic models that
result.
My conclusions:
1. Competition keeps pooling down, and incentives to spend drain
those pools.
2. The use of faucets and drains as a methodology for designing an
economy is inherently flawed and leads down the wrong road.
Said another way, cash in an economy just needs to be kept on the
move. No single person should WANT to hang onto cash because it's
more fun to spend it than it is to pile it up. When players are
providing the outlets for that free cash, the money keeps floating
from player to player.
Lastly, businesses are the ones that SHOULD be pooling money in a
game. The people who should get money are the ones that are
providing services to the rest of the player community. That's WHY
we pay each other with our valuable money, after all. You have
something that I want, whether cookies, bread or coffee.
I think designers make the mistake of rewarding players with cash
and prizes for killing things, when the entertainment of killing
something should be the reward. Unfortunately, killing things isn't
very entertaining. Thus the problem; cash and prizes go to players
who aren't doing anything to add to the entertainment value of the
game for other players, and the whole game economy goes
inflationary.
Perhaps games need more types of currency than coins. Maybe
prestige and
trophies for the killers. Ranks and titles for the politicos, etc.
JB - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency sziisoft
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency cruise
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Steven King
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Adam Helps
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Brian Thyer
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Castronova, Edward
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Alistair Milne
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency brian@thyer.net
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Arkitan Plu
- Story Generators Douglas Goodall
- ADMIN Changes to the list page J C Lawrence
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Chanur Silvarian
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeremy Gaffney
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Threshold RPG
- Bringing in friends Pat Ditterline
- Bringing in friends Amanda Walker
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... ceo
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Freeman, Jeff
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Sean Howard
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Mike Rozak
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Nathan Yospe
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23 Alex Chacha
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
- Playing catch-up with levels Ola Fosheim Grøstad
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler