April 2004
- [BIZ] Playas Pay to Spread the Luv Michael Tresca
- Mogi from Newtgames Olivier Lejade
- Client side simulation dienw
- Client side simulation Nate Combs {Home}
- Client side simulation Thomas Tomiczek
- Client side simulation Amanda Walker
- Client side simulation Artur Biesiadowski
- Client side simulation Byron Ellacott
- [Devops] Initial meoww cleanup J C Lawrence
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Michael Sellers
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Tess Snider
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Derek Licciardi
From: Michael Sellers
> Raph wrote:
>> To broaden the discussion a little to the general topic of server
>> middleware/server codebases: what's the general feeling of the
>> list on this issue? My personal take is that middleware generally
>> makes too many assumptions that end up constraining the eventual
>> game design--plus, you have to rewrite most of it anyway or end
>> up with generic stuff. This has seemed to me to be true with muds
>> and true with MMOGs.
> I think middleware becomes viable when the design space has been
> traversed often enough that it's pretty well-known, or when
> there's a solution that's simply so good you both want to include
> it and couldn't possibly make it yourself for the same price. For
> example, just a few years ago 3D engine creation was still in the
> realm of being a black art, and licensing one was perilous at
> best. Now such licensing is increasingly common. Many might not
> consider a 3D engine to be middleware, but I think it qualifies:
> it's an important chunk of code and functionality that you decide
> to buy vs. build.
I had this same feeling at GDC this year. Is there anyone on the
list that isn't blown away by SpeedTree? There's a piece of
middleware that seems to be gaining significant steam in the
industry. I seem to favor middleware that solves a specific
problem. Generating lots of interesting trees and being able to
render them in real time is one of those narrow problems. Large
networking libraries, Big World, Butterfly.net, and some of the
others did not seem as viable to me for one reason or another. I
would think it has to do with your game but it all goes back to what
Michael says in this reply.
"I think middleware becomes viable when the design space has been
traversed often enough that it's pretty well-known."
Given that MMOs have only had a handful of successful iterations; it
seems really difficult to automate the process of creating them
without introducing constraints to the design process. I too agree
with Raph in that I think you'll get a generic game out of them
without rewriting them and frankly, none of the GDC presentations
from Big World, Butterfly.net, et al showed me differently. At this
time I don't think it's possible to provide a truly useful MMO
middleware solution for commercial use. (ala to compete with SWG,
EQ, AC, DAoC...)
Now, when it comes to 3D engines, there seems to be a different
mentality here and part of that is due to a perception and part of
it is due to the development costs rising. Customers have a
perception that an engine == = stability and a good
launch. (Thank DAoC, EQ, AC, Shadowbane... for that perception) 3D
engines are awfully hard to create and get right for all of the PC
hardware out there. If you're not doing something out of the
ordinary, like creating a procedural terrain engine from scratch,
then existing engines can provide a good tradeoff between stability
and flexibility. Admittedly, you give up being able to do some of
what you want but in return you most likely get a good client
launch, a stable client and happy customers. (If you botch your
server code, that's another matter) As far as I'm concerned the
rewards outweigh the risks and an engine is a good place to start
from.
At this time I can see using a 3D engine, SpeedTree and other very
narrowly defined technologies, but full scale MMO servers are a bit
premature which probably explains why Big World and Butterfly.net
have yet to secure that one huge customer.
Derek
- Announcement: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
- Middleware ceo
- [NEWS] Final Fantasy XI debut on PS2 in US kennerly@sfsu.edu
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Joshua Hughes
- Random Placename Generation Ben Hawes
- Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Mike Rozak
- Middleware Luca Girardo
- Habitat Redux Mirjam Eladhari
- MUD-Dev Convention Report David Kennerly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Michael Sellers
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Licensed setting MMOGs Taylor Daynes
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- Dangers of Middleware Mike Rozak
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Marian Griffith
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Stone, Jason
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (the firstone:)) Thomas Tomiczek
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone:)) David Kennerly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John MacQueen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Travis Casey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Kevin N Shallow
- Paranoia Ragnar Lonn
- Player Justice Amanda Walker
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Less constrained environments Chris Duesing
- Less constrained environments John MacQueen
- MMOG money-making clients ceo
- MMOG money-making clients Koster, Raph
- MMOG money-making clients Valerio Santinelli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Thomas Tomiczek
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Steven King
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Miller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Chris Duesing
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server andGordon's10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Matt Chatterley
- MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Tess Snider
- Gay Characters in Videogames Darksuit
- Gay Characters in Videogames Matt Mihaly
- Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Jon A. Lambert
- Gay Characters in Videogames matt@ironrealms.com
- Gay Characters in Videogames Douglas Goodall
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 kihyun {GTA Interactive}
- Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
- Licensed setting MMOGs Ian McDonald
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ryan S. Dancey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- R: [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ghilardi Filippo
- [BoardGameDesign] Fog of War (to Robert & dr1010xltd) (fwd) J C Lawrence
- Online economies was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- PvP vs. PvE was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law Jon A. Lambert
- Kaczynski's Law jfreeman@soe.sony.com
- Kaczynski's Law Robert Flesch
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law J C Lawrence
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law cruise
- Kaczynski's Law Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
- Playing catch-up with levels [WAS Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy!] Byron Ellacott
- PvP vs. PvE Rob C
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Mirjam Eladhari
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC matt@ironrealms.com
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Luca Girardo
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Jonas Heide Smith
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Ren Reynolds
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
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- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Chanur Silvarian
- Playing catch-up with levels Jeremy Gaffney
- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Threshold RPG
- Bringing in friends Pat Ditterline
- Bringing in friends Amanda Walker
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... ceo
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Freeman, Jeff
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Sean Howard
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Mike Rozak
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Nathan Yospe
- Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
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- MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23 Alex Chacha
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