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April 2004

[BIZ] Playas Pay to Spread the Luv Michael Tresca
Mogi from Newtgames Olivier Lejade
Client side simulation dienw
- Client side simulation Nate Combs {Home}
- - Client side simulation Thomas Tomiczek
- Client side simulation Amanda Walker
- Client side simulation Artur Biesiadowski
- Client side simulation Byron Ellacott
[Devops] Initial meoww cleanup J C Lawrence
Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Michael Sellers

Raph wrote:

> To broaden the discussion a little to the general topic of server
> middleware/server codebases: what's the general feeling of the
> list on this issue? My personal take is that middleware generally
> makes too many assumptions that end up constraining the eventual
> game design--plus, you have to rewrite most of it anyway or end up
> with generic stuff. This has seemed to me to be true with muds and
> true with MMOGs.

I think middleware becomes viable when the design space has been
traversed often enough that it's pretty well-known, or when there's
a solution that's simply so good you both want to include it and
couldn't possibly make it yourself for the same price. For example,
just a few years ago 3D engine creation was still in the realm of
being a black art, and licensing one was perilous at best. Now such
licensing is increasingly common. Many might not consider a 3D
engine to be middleware, but I think it qualifies: it's an important
chunk of code and functionality that you decide to buy vs. build.

That said, you're right that any middleware you buy is going to make
assumptions that turn into constraints on your design and
development -- but this is true starting right with the language you
choose to write your system in. I don't think there's a global
answer here; whether using middleware given its constraints is still
a net win is something every project has to weigh carefully.

One other thing about middleware: more and more people are trying to
sell 'solutions' including hardware, databases, server packages,
world generation, networking, graphics, AI, etc. And yet few of
these have a strong existence proof to show that they really do
work. This is the chicken-and-egg problem for middleware providers:
once you can show your product adding significant and obvious value
to a game, selling it becomes much easier -- but no one wants to be
the one to take that first bite and risk their project on your
middleware. It's a tough sell until you can show, as they used to
say on TV, that "it really really works." :)

Mike Sellers
Online Alchemy
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Tess Snider
- - Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Amanda Walker
- Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Derek Licciardi
Announcement: Community Work Symposium - May 21 T.L. Taylor
Middleware ceo
[NEWS] Final Fantasy XI debut on PS2 in US kennerly@sfsu.edu
Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Joshua Hughes
- Random Placename Generation Ben Hawes
- - Random Placename Generation Matt Chatterley
- Random Placename Generation Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone :)) Mike Rozak
Middleware Luca Girardo
Habitat Redux Mirjam Eladhari
MUD-Dev Convention Report David Kennerly
Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- Licensed setting MMOGs Michael Sellers
- Licensed setting MMOGs Matt Mihaly
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
Licensed setting MMOGs Taylor Daynes
Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
Dangers of Middleware Mike Rozak
Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
- - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Marian Griffith
- - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
  - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
  - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
  - - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Stone, Jason
    - - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Douglas Goodall
Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (the firstone:)) Thomas Tomiczek
- Sun's Sim Server and Gordon's 10 Reasons (thefirstone:)) David Kennerly
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John MacQueen
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Travis Casey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
- - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
  - - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
    - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Kevin N Shallow
Paranoia Ragnar Lonn
Player Justice Amanda Walker
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
Less constrained environments Chris Duesing
- Less constrained environments John MacQueen
MMOG money-making clients ceo
- MMOG money-making clients Koster, Raph
- MMOG money-making clients Valerio Santinelli
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
- - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
  - - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
    - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
    - - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
      - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Jeff Fuller
        [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Thomas Tomiczek
        [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Steven King
        [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
        [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Vincent Archer
        [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
      - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Miller
      - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! John Buehler
        [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Chris Duesing
    - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paul Schwanz
    - - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Paolo Piselli
      - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Amanda Walker
    - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Matt Mihaly
    - - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
Middleware (was Sun's Sim Server andGordon's10Reasons (thefirstone :)) Matt Chatterley
MudDev FAQ - part 2 Marian Griffith
Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
- Gay Characters in Videogames Tess Snider
- - Gay Characters in Videogames Darksuit
- Gay Characters in Videogames Matt Mihaly
- - Gay Characters in Videogames Michael Tresca
  - - Gay Characters in Videogames Jon A. Lambert
    - - Gay Characters in Videogames matt@ironrealms.com
- Gay Characters in Videogames Douglas Goodall
MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 10 kihyun {GTA Interactive}
Player Justice Freeman, Jeff
- Player Justice Paul Schwanz
Licensed setting MMOGs Ian McDonald
- Licensed setting MMOGs Christopher Allen
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ryan S. Dancey
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Otis Viles
- - [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! baar@imperian.com
- [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! J C Lawrence
R: [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Ghilardi Filippo
[BoardGameDesign] Fog of War (to Robert & dr1010xltd) (fwd) J C Lawrence
Online economies was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
PvP vs. PvE was [News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Brian Hook
[News] Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy! Eric Random
Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
- Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- - Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
  - - Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
    - - Kaczynski's Law Jon A. Lambert
      - Kaczynski's Law jfreeman@soe.sony.com
      - Kaczynski's Law Robert Flesch
        Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
        Kaczynski's Law Freeman, Jeff
  - Kaczynski's Law J C Lawrence
  - Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
  - - Kaczynski's Law Michael Sellers
- Kaczynski's Law cruise
- Kaczynski's Law Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
- Kaczynski's Law Mike Rozak
Playing catch-up with levels [WAS Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy!] Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels [WAS Virtual goods--Oh, the controversy!] Steven King
PvP vs. PvE Rob C
notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Mirjam Eladhari
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC matt@ironrealms.com
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Luca Girardo
- - notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Jonas Heide Smith
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Ren Reynolds
- notes from MUD Dev conf and GDC Brian 'Psychochild' Green
Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
- Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
- - Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
  - - Playing catch-up with levels Michael Sellers
    - - Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
    - Playing catch-up with levels Ben Hawes
    - - Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
      - Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
        Playing catch-up with levels Hulbert, Leland
      - Playing catch-up with levels John Arras
      - Playing catch-up with levels jfreeman@soe.sony.com
      - Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
        Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
        Playing catch-up with levels Matt Chatterley
        Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
        Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
        Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
        Playing catch-up with levels cruise
        Playing catch-up with levels Stephen Routledge
        Playing catch-up with levels cruise
        Playing catch-up with levels Lars Duening
        Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
        Playing catch-up with levels Vincent Archer
        Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
        Playing catch-up with levels Eli Stevens {WG.c}
        Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels cruise
        Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
        Playing catch-up with levels cruise
        Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
        Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
        Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
        Playing catch-up with levels Jason Downs
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels cruise
        Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels Chris Duesing
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
        Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
        Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
        Playing catch-up with levels Travis Nixon
        Playing catch-up with levels cruise
        Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
        Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
        Playing catch-up with levels Douglas Goodall
        Playing catch-up with levels Harrok
        Playing catch-up with levels Valerio Santinelli
      - Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
      - Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
        Playing catch-up with levels Kwon J. Ekstrom
    - Playing catch-up with levels Jeff Fuller
    - - Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
    - Playing catch-up with levels Jeff
    - Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
    - - Playing catch-up with levels Craig Huber
      - Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
    - Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
  - Playing catch-up with levels cruise
  - - Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Edward Glowacki
- - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Ian McDonald
- - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
  - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Pileborg Joachim - FMT
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
  - - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
    - - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
      - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Paul Schwanz
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency sziisoft
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency cruise
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Steven King
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Matt Chatterley
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Douglas Goodall
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency baar@imperian.com
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Adam Helps
        DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Brian Thyer
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Castronova, Edward
- - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Eric Random
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Alistair Milne
- - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
  - - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency John Buehler
    - - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Rayzam
      - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Freeman, Jeff
  - - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency brian@thyer.net
    - DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Kirinyaga
- DESIGN: Active and Inactive currency Arkitan Plu
Story Generators Douglas Goodall
ADMIN Changes to the list page J C Lawrence
MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Chanur Silvarian
Playing catch-up with levels Jeremy Gaffney
MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 19 Threshold RPG
Bringing in friends Pat Ditterline
- Bringing in friends Amanda Walker
[biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... ceo
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Freeman, Jeff
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Eli Stevens {WG.c}
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Sean Howard
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Mike Rozak
- [biz][tech][dgn][soc] Ten MMOG's you don't want to do... Nathan Yospe
Playing catch-up with levels Steven King
- Playing catch-up with levels Byron Ellacott
Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 11, Issue 23 Alex Chacha
Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
- Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
- - Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
  - - Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
    - - Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
      - Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
      - Playing catch-up with levels Amanda Walker
      - Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
  - Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
  - - Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
    - - Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
      - Playing catch-up with levels Matt Mihaly
        Playing catch-up with levels Ola Fosheim Grøstad
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler
        Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- Playing catch-up with levels Zach Collins {Siege}
- Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
- - Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
  - - Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
    - - Playing catch-up with levels Sean Howard
      - Playing catch-up with levels Threshold RPG
        Playing catch-up with levels John Buehler