January 2004

• The last days of Discord PVP server on EQ Frank Crowell
• • The last days of Discord PVP server on EQ szii@sziisoft.com
• biggest muds Matt Mihaly
• Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
• • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
  • • Congratulations Horizons... Marian Griffith
    • • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
      • • Congratulations Horizons... T H
        • Congratulations Horizons... Matt Mihaly
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
          • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
        • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
        • Congratulations Horizons... Marian Griffith
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Chris Duesing
      • Congratulations Horizons... Mike Shaver
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Marian Griffith
      • Congratulations Horizons... Tom "cro" Gordon
    • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
    • • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
      • Congratulations Horizons... Christopher Kohnert
      • Congratulations Horizons... Vincent Archer
      • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Vincent Archer
          According to Chanur Silvarian:
          > From: "Lee Sheldon" <lsheldo2@tampabay.rr.com>
          
          > It doesn't matter that there was no NPC on the other end, your
          > delivery was information. It just so happened that you were both
          > the sender and courier, but you were the courier. It was FED-EX.
          > Pick up the package (information) and deliver it.
          
          ...
          
          > You did deliver something. You delivered yourself. You were both
          > the package and the courier in this instance. It was FED-EX.
          > Pick up the package (yourself) and deliver it.
          
          (several other "this is FED-EX" definition snipped)
          
          >> Finally we have the quest to free several "enslaved races" that
          >> players will then be able to play. At the moment this requires
          >> crafters to rebuild certain mines while adventurers stand guard
          >> and slay the mobs trying to stop them.
          
          > This sounds like it might actually break out of the FED-EX. I'd
          > have to know a bit more about it because I honestly don't think an
          > MMORPG can do anything other than FED-EX. I'm betting this is get
          > the package (not sure what the package is here, might be a
          > completed mine) to a certain location/person and that it just has
          > added the necessity of co-operation to complete it.
          
          Actually, it's not a quest in the sense we usually have it in most
          MMOG. No "one" is completing a quest here. For most games, a quest
          is something deeply personal. You (the avatar) have a quest. You
          are helping in a friend's quest. What is your quest in here? You
          don't have one. Nobody who is involved has one. However, you are
          involved in a story.
          
          Quest (from Webster, relevant definitions):
          
          - An act or instance of seeking
          
          - A chivalrous enterprise in medieval romance usually involving an
          adventurous journey
          
          Nowhere in that definition is the requirement that a quest is tied
          to an individual. Even the journey part is optional. All it
          requires is a goal.
          
          If you want a similar example, there was relatively recently, in
          Dereth, the world of Asheron's Call, an invasion of giant insects,
          the Olthoi. They replaced most of the monsters one could hunt across
          the game world. Now, players could band together, find an Olthoi
          Hive, destroy it, and thus clean an area of its Olthoi, and unlock
          the next Hive.
          
          By the way the level limits in the various hives works (only
          character between level X and Y can enter), it is completely
          possible that each slaughtering in sequence is done by different
          characters. Any character can participate only in one slaughter.
          Maybe 2 or 3, if they can level sufficiently fast to be able to
          enter the next hive in sequence. And so on, until the last hive
          cleaned, and the last Olthoi repelled.
          
          Question: if each character can participate once, and only once to a
          step of the event, then what is the package? Where is it delivered?
          And the real question: By whom?
          
          But the players will not tell you they're engaged in a quest. They
          will say that they participating in the "story", not a quest.
          
          > Much as I hate to admit it, I have to agree that I've not seen a
          > quest in any MMORPG that is not a FED-EX. There is a very simple
          > reason why MMO's can't break out of FED-EX, it is because the only
          > way to do it is to allow for free will of the player character to
          > choose their course. As soon as you do that, you can no longer
          > program it and must use a live GM to give game world reaction
          > rather than game AI.
          
          What you say here is basically what I said in another post on that
          topic. You abstract the "quest" from the game system, and move it
          onto the virtual realm of story.
          
          However, I've also provided with an example that is hard, even by
          your definition, to make as a FED-EX. So you have a quest. In your
          quest journal, you are now at step #17: "Become level 19". That's
          it. At the very instant you level to 19 (with the appropriate
          pavlovian and mandatory "ding" sound), the quest journal updates to
          step #18.
          
          In what way have you delivered something? This can happen anywhere.
          This can happen as you're advancing another quest and getting some
          experience, or as you're slaughtering the orc shaman in his camp, or
          a dire bear in a cave in the northern wastes. There is no location,
          no NPC to which you have delivered "I am level 19". You have
          *produced* a level 19 instead.
          
          There are some games (DAoC comes to mind) that do have this. In
          DAoC, you may have some quests that involve getting 3 pelts from
          random wolves in the forests. As soon as you loot the 3rd pelt,
          that quest step is completed, and the quest advances.
          
          Now, granted, usually, the very next quest step in the journal is
          "travel to X" or "come back to Y" for the reward, or the next
          assignment, hence the temptation to point your finger and say "see:
          here is the FED-EX! It is FED-EX still". But it's not. In theory,
          the reward could instantly be made available. As you slaughter your
          3rd wolf, you can have the experience, faction adjustments, and the
          quest complete; no delivery needed.
          
          The FEDEX-like travel is put there in the interests of the story,
          not because of any technical limitations. It sounds more plausible
          to have the reward delivered by some NPC involved in the story.
          Having your ubersword of doom appear suddendly out of nowhere in
          your inventory sounds a bit... implausible.
          
          The original complain in Everquest that all quests are "FED-EX"
          ironically springs from the fact that there are no Quests in EQ.
          The game engine does not have any concept of a quest in the classic
          sense of most single player games, or of games like DAoC or
          Asheron's Call 2.
          
          There is no "quest journal" in EQ. No game mechanic to track your
          progress along a linear, storied quest. Instead, the game only
          recognises keywords said to a NPC, and items turn-ins. Quests are
          abstraction, made of completely disconnected triggers, carefully
          linked together so that they give the illusion of a quest. Items,
          and, since the Planes of Power expansion, their virtual equivalent,
          the flags, are used as tokens to make sure the quest "steps" are
          done in series.
          
          So yes, by nature, all quests in EQ could be reduced to some FED-EX
          fetch-n-carry, because of the game engine limitations.
          
          But that's not the case in general.
          
          --
          Vincent Archer Email: archer@frmug.org
          
          All men are mortal. Socrates was mortal. Therefore, all men are Socrates.
          (Woody Allen)
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
          • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
          • • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
    • Congratulations Horizons... Matt Mihaly
    • • Congratulations Horizons... John Buehler
  • Congratulations Horizons... Philip M. Hofer {Frumph}
  • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
    • Congratulations Horizons... Paul Schwanz
    • • Congratulations Horizons... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
      • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
  • Congratulations Horizons... Matt Mihaly
  • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
• [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ted L. Chen
• • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ammon Lauritzen
  • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Chanur Silvarian
    • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Michael "Flury" Chui
      • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Zach Collins {Siege}
      • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers David Kennerly
  • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Paolo Piselli
  • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Sean Kelly
  • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Chanur Silvarian
    • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Alex Chacha
    • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ted L. Chen
    • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers ceo
      • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Dave Bacher
      • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
        • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ben Hawes
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Byron Ellacott
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Kirinyaga
        • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
        • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers szii@sziisoft.com
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Brian Hook
          • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Mike Shaver
              • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Byron Ellacott
              • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Byron Ellacott
        • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers J C Lawrence
        • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Rayzam
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Vincent Archer
        • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Robert Zubek
  • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Travis Casey
• [BIZ] Defining 'churhn' in relation to MMO games Tom "cro" Gordon
• • [BIZ] Defining 'churhn' in relation to MMO games ren@aldermangroup.com
• Moderation delays J C Lawrence
• NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Peter Seebach
• • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Jon Leonard
  • • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Peter Seebach
  • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Lars Duening
  • • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Peter Seebach
    • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Mats Lidstrom
    • • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Lars Duening
• Expected value and standard deviation. Michael Tresca
• • Expected value and standard deviation. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • • Expected value and standard deviation. Michael Tresca
    • • Expected value and standard deviation. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• levels (was: ghost mode) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9) Paul Schwanz
• • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) John Buehler
  • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) John Buehler
      • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
        • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) John Buehler
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Freeman, Jeff
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) John Buehler
      • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Dave Bacher
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Ian McDonald
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
  • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Rayzam
  • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Rayzam
      • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
        • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Eli Stevens {WG.c}
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Sheela Caur'Lir
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) John Buehler
      • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Dave Bacher
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) T H
      • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Rayzam
  • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) eversilver@yahoo.com
• Camping (Was just named as a generic MUD-DEV reply) Chanur Silvarian
• • Camping (Was just named as a generic MUD-DEV reply) ren@aldermangroup.com
  • Camping (Was just named as a generic MUD-DEV reply) Brent P. Newhall
• Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Björn Morén
• • Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Daniel Anderson
  • Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Sheela Caur'Lir
  • Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Kirinyaga
• Do players enjoy farming? Chanur Silvarian
• Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9) Paul Schwanz
• • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9) Tom "cro" Gordon
• Online worlds and behavior... etykwins@fcbayern.de
• ANNOUNCE: MUD-Dev conference, 26 and 27 March 2004 J C Lawrence
• MudWorld.Org Anthony R. Haslage
• New MMORPG from the Army Amanda Walker
• • New MMORPG from the Army Dave Rickey
  • • New MMORPG from the Army Amanda Walker
    • • New MMORPG from the Army Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• FedExing ghovs
• • FedExing Sean Middleditch
  • FedExing Ben Hawes
  • • FedExing Alistair Riddoch
    • • FedExing Jesus Lopez
      • • FedExing Alistair Riddoch
        • • FedExing Sean Middleditch
• Play styles and world interactionsistilldontwantitposted@phlange.com J C Lawrence
• Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Sean Middleditch
• • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval T H
  • • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Ben Hawes
    • • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Sean Middleditch
  • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Spot
  • • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Sean Middleditch
  • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• [DGN] Senior Focus Mentor Needed Andrew Budd
• [BIZ] HOW TO SCREW UP A PERFECTLY GOOD GAME COMPANY IN TEN EASY STEPS Michael Tresca
• [BIZ] TEN MORE EASY WAYS TO SCREW UP YOUR GAME COMPANY Michael Tresca
• Crafting systems Björn Morén
• Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex David Lyttle
• • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex eversilver@yahoo.com
  • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Chanur Silvarian
    • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Sean Howard
      • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Chanur Silvarian
        • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Sean Howard
• Moving toward Massive Multiplay (was Congratulations Horizons...) Paul Schwanz
• • Moving toward Massive Multiplay (was Congratulations Horizons...) Mike Shaver
• ADMIN: Policy change J C Lawrence
• [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems ceo
• • [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems Erik Bethke
  • • [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems ceo
    • [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems Jon A. Lambert
• Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
• • Problems with current RPGs Koster, Raph
  • • Problems with current RPGs Sean Howard
    • Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
    • • Problems with current RPGs Koster, Raph
      • • Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
        • • Problems with current RPGs David Johansson
    • Problems with current RPGs Yaka St.Aise
  • Problems with current RPGs Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
  • Problems with current RPGs Yaka St.Aise
• Character Perceptions John Buehler
• • Character Perceptions Derek Licciardi
  • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
    • • Character Perceptions ceo
      • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
  • Character Perceptions Scion Altera
  • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
  • Character Perceptions bjoernen@hotmail.com
  • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
• [BIZ] Warcraft Interview Michael Tresca
• • [BIZ] Warcraft Interview ceo
  • [BIZ] Warcraft Interview Björn Morén
• Raffle at the MUD-Dev Conference, March 27th and 28th 2004 Ann
• R: Moving toward Massive Multiplay (was CongratulationsHorizons...) Ghilardi Filippo
• Python script as stand alone MUD server... Jason Slaughter
• • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Sean Middleditch
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Jason Slaughter
    • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Sean Middleditch
      • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
        • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Kwon J. Ekstrom
        • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
      • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Byron Ellacott
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Mats Lidstrom
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... ceo
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
    • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... ceo
      • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
        • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Byron Ellacott
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Edward Glowacki
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Brian Hook
    • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Sean Middleditch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Frank Crowell
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Byron Ellacott
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Mike Shaver
    • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Thomas Clive Richards
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
• [BIZ] Apparent acquisition of Yantis (mysupersales) by IDE Rudy Fink
• • [BIZ] Apparent acquisition of Yantis (mysupersales) by IDE Bruce Mitchener
• Meaning and entertainment - Farming and FedExing (was Do players enjoy farming?) Michael Sellers
• Power games Ana Valdés
• • Power games Mats Lidstrom
  • • Power games Ana Valdés
  • Power games Byron Ellacott
  • • Power games Ana Valdés
• Mage 2 Mage gbtmud
• • Mage 2 Mage Travis Casey
• Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Brad King
• • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Chris
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Nick Yee
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Paul Schwanz
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Lee Faris
• Platform choice Gary Whitten
• MUD client popularity Brian Hook
• • MUD client popularity Frank Crowell
  • MUD client popularity Ammon Lauritzen
  • • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
    • • MUD client popularity Rayzam
      • • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
        • • MUD client popularity Rayzam
      • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
      • • MUD client popularity J C Lawrence
        • • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
    • MUD client popularity Travis Casey
    • • MUD client popularity Ammon Lauritzen
      • MUD client popularity Byron Ellacott
      • • MUD client popularity Frank Fisher
      • MUD client popularity ceo
      • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
      • • MUD client popularity Emil Nilimaa
        • • MUD client popularity Tom "cro" Gordon
          • • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
      • MUD client popularity Sean Middleditch
      • • MUD client popularity Zach Collins {Siege}
        • • MUD client popularity Sean Middleditch
  • MUD client popularity Alistair Riddoch
  • MUD client popularity Byron Ellacott
  • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
  • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
  • • MUD client popularity Sean Middleditch
    • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
    • MUD client popularity Brent P. Newhall
• SMOG - small multiuser online game Frank Crowell
• • SMOG - small multiuser online game Miroslav Silovic
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Frank Crowell
  • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Frank Crowell
    • SMOG - small multiuser online game Byron Ellacott
    • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • SMOG - small multiuser online game Byron Ellacott
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Tom "cro" Gordon
    • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game maddog
• [BUS] How to build an MMOG... ceo
• [DGN] Subjective randomness (was: The psychology of random numbers) Robert Zubek
• • [DGN] Subjective randomness (was: The psychology of random numbers) Felix A. Croes
  • • [DGN] Subjective randomness (was: The psychology of random numbers) Sean Kelly
• Solutions for smarter NPCs Björn Morén
• • Solutions for smarter NPCs ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
  • • Solutions for smarter NPCs info@castwide.com
  • Solutions for smarter NPCs Kirinyaga
  • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Vincent Archer
    • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Valerio Santinelli
      • Solutions for smarter NPCs Olivier Lejade
      • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Kirinyaga
        • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Olivier Lejade
  • Solutions for smarter NPCs Michael Sellers