January 2004

• The last days of Discord PVP server on EQ Frank Crowell
• • The last days of Discord PVP server on EQ szii@sziisoft.com
• biggest muds Matt Mihaly
• Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
• • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
  • • Congratulations Horizons... Marian Griffith
    • • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
      • • Congratulations Horizons... T H
        • Congratulations Horizons... Matt Mihaly
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
          • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
        • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
        • Congratulations Horizons... Marian Griffith
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Chris Duesing
      • Congratulations Horizons... Mike Shaver
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Marian Griffith
      • Congratulations Horizons... Tom "cro" Gordon
    • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
    • • Congratulations Horizons... Brad McQuaid
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
      • Congratulations Horizons... Christopher Kohnert
      • Congratulations Horizons... Vincent Archer
      • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Vincent Archer
        • • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
          • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
          • • Congratulations Horizons... Chanur Silvarian
    • Congratulations Horizons... Matt Mihaly
    • • Congratulations Horizons... John Buehler
  • Congratulations Horizons... Philip M. Hofer {Frumph}
  • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
    • Congratulations Horizons... Paul Schwanz
    • • Congratulations Horizons... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
      • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
  • Congratulations Horizons... Matt Mihaly
  • • Congratulations Horizons... Lee Sheldon
• [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ted L. Chen
• • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ammon Lauritzen
  • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Chanur Silvarian
    • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Michael "Flury" Chui
      • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Zach Collins {Siege}
      • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers David Kennerly
  • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Paolo Piselli
  • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Sean Kelly
  • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Chanur Silvarian
    • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Alex Chacha
    • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ted L. Chen
    • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers ceo
      • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Dave Bacher
      • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
        • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Ben Hawes
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Byron Ellacott
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Kirinyaga
        • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
        • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers szii@sziisoft.com
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Brian Hook
          • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Mike Shaver
              • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Byron Ellacott
              • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Byron Ellacott
        • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers J C Lawrence
        • • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Rayzam
          • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Vincent Archer
        • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Robert Zubek
  • [DGN] The psychology of random numbers Travis Casey
    On Monday 05 January 2004 19:42, Ted L. Chen wrote:
    
    > It's been a while since my last post, and it has taken some time
    > to catch up on the interesting reading.
    
    Finally getting around to responding to this...
    
    > The old thread about hiding numbers from players has got me
    > thinking about the probability-based formulas that rely on said
    > numbers. This musing has generated an interesting dilema:
    
    > How does one convey, to the player, the fact that the output is
    > probalistic when most numeric measures appear determinant?
    
    > To illustrate, take your standard RPG combat roll
    
    There ain't no such thing. The closest thing there is to a
    "standard RPG" is D&D and its derivatives... but even there, there
    are multiple kinds of combat (ranged vs. melee, for example).
    
    > and answer the following two cases:
    
    > A) Bubba is fighting Buffy. He has a STR of 255, she a STR of
    > 240. Who will win?
    
    Well, first off, you're violating my expectations of "standard RPG"
    -- D&D and derivatives generally don't have strength scores that
    high.
    
    I'd have a lot of questions. How are they fighting? Unarmed? With
    swords? A gunfight at high noon? How skilled are they at fighting?
    What's their agility/dexterity/whatever you want to call it? What
    armor are they wearing? Etc., etc.
    
    Assuming that say, it's with hand weapons and "all else being
    equal", I'd expect Bubba to have a very slight advantage... after
    all, his strength is less than 10% higher than Buffy's.
    
    > B) Bubba is fighting Buffy. He is very strong. She is also
    > very strong. Who will win?
    
    > My supposition is that most people are inclined to say that Bubba
    > will win in A (strong expectation), while they remain unsure as to
    > the winner in B (weak expectation). While both win-distributions
    > are almost even, the weaker expectation matches reality more
    > closely.
    
    > Why the fuss? When Bubba plays and sees his stats greater than
    > Buffy, his expectations of winning are skewed by the concrete
    > measuring yardstick. When he loses to Buffy, his world view is
    > shattered and the game becomes bugged, Buffy is cheating, or he
    > somehow has nerfed equipment.
    
    > Working on the loose assumption that displaying some sort of
    > measure is inevitable, is there some way we can better manage
    > player expectations?
    
    > NB: The discretized vagueness of case B is one obvious way. I'm
    > just looking for other possibilities here.
    
    You can have vagueness with numbers -- give a range instead of a
    single value. If, for example, you're working with a D&D3-style
    system, you might list Bubba's strength as 17-55, and Buffy's as
    14-52. (Giving Bubba a base strength of 15 and Buffy a 12, then
    adding the 1d20, x2 since your actual strength *bonus* only goes up
    every other point of strength). This should convey to players that
    there's a large amount of overlap in what can be expected from Bubba
    and Buffy.
    
    (And, yes, I know that many players are going to scream bloody
    murder at seeing ranges like that. There's also many who will
    scream at seeing things like "very strong".)
    
    You might also wish to remind players that multiple factors play a
    role. One way to do this would be to give a "combat factor" which
    is calculated from multiple things -- potentially even including
    what armor and weapons a character is carrying. Or you could break
    it into "attack factor" and "defense factor". And, of course, you
    could also break it down for different types of combat -- e.g., with
    a "ranged attack factor".
    
    Alternatively, you could give actual calculated game statistics.
    E.g., in a D&D-esque system, the range of armor classes that a
    character can hit, the character's armor class, the character's hit
    points, and the character's damage roll. Going back to my example
    above, with all else being equal, this would show players that all
    Bubba's 3 extra points of Strength give him over Buffy is a +1 to
    hit and a +1 to damage. You could also combine this with giving
    ranges as above.
    
    Scaling things differently may also help. In the example you gave,
    cutting the scale by a factor of 10 gives Bubba a 26 and Buffy a 24.
    Will people expect Bubba to have as much of an advantage as they did
    with the 255 and 240?
    
    For very high scores, a logarithmic scale can be a help as well.
    With a logarithmic scale, the difference in scores depends on the
    proportional values... so, for example, if the scale is x2 -> +5, if
    A is twice as strong as B, A's strength will be 5 points higher than
    B's... no matter what the actual scores are.
    
    To give an example; let's say that A has a strength of 10. B is
    twice as strong as A, C is four times as strong as B, and D is twice
    as strong as C. In a linear scale, their scores would be:
    
    A: 10
    B: 20
    C: 80
    D: 160
    
    Many people will expect that D will beat C in a direct contest of
    strength (say, arm-wrestling) much more easily than B will beat A --
    after all, D is 80 points stronger than C, while B is only 10 points
    stronger than A. But when you get down to it, twice as strong is
    twice as strong, so D's chance of beating C at arm-wrestling should
    be the same as B's chance of beating A (all else being equal).
    
    In contrast, with the x2 -> +5 logarithmic scale, their scores would
    be:
    
    A: 10
    B: 15
    C: 25
    D: 30
    
    That may make it easier for some people to see that D's advantage
    over C isn't greater than B's over A.
    
    (And, of course, if you combine this with giving a range, it becomes
    much more apparent. Let's say the game's standard roll is 1d10 +
    attribute -- then we have:
    
    A: 11-20
    B: 16-25
    C: 26-35
    D: 31-40
    
    ... which instantly gets across that A and B can never beat C or D
    without something to help them, but that A/B and C/D both have
    overlapping ranges, so either could beat the other!)
    
    --
    |\ _,,,---,,_ Travis S. Casey <efindel@earthlink.net>
    ZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ No one agrees with me. Not even me.
    |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-'
    '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
• [BIZ] Defining 'churhn' in relation to MMO games Tom "cro" Gordon
• • [BIZ] Defining 'churhn' in relation to MMO games ren@aldermangroup.com
• Moderation delays J C Lawrence
• NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Peter Seebach
• • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Jon Leonard
  • • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Peter Seebach
  • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Lars Duening
  • • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Peter Seebach
    • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Mats Lidstrom
    • • NEWS TECH: Welcome to the "MUD-Dev" mailing list Lars Duening
• Expected value and standard deviation. Michael Tresca
• • Expected value and standard deviation. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • • Expected value and standard deviation. Michael Tresca
    • • Expected value and standard deviation. Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• levels (was: ghost mode) Ola Fosheim Grøstad
• Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9) Paul Schwanz
• • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) John Buehler
  • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) John Buehler
      • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
        • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) John Buehler
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Freeman, Jeff
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) John Buehler
      • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Dave Bacher
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Ian McDonald
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
  • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Rayzam
  • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Rayzam
      • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Paul Schwanz
        • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) Eli Stevens {WG.c}
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Sheela Caur'Lir
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) John Buehler
      • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Dave Bacher
    • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
    • • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) T H
      • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue9) Rayzam
  • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol7, Issue9) eversilver@yahoo.com
• Camping (Was just named as a generic MUD-DEV reply) Chanur Silvarian
• • Camping (Was just named as a generic MUD-DEV reply) ren@aldermangroup.com
  • Camping (Was just named as a generic MUD-DEV reply) Brent P. Newhall
• Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Björn Morén
• • Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Daniel Anderson
  • Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Sheela Caur'Lir
  • Exploits and hacks in MMORPGs Kirinyaga
• Do players enjoy farming? Chanur Silvarian
• Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9) Paul Schwanz
• • Do players enjoy farming? (was MUD-Dev Digest, Vol 7, Issue 9) Tom "cro" Gordon
• Online worlds and behavior... etykwins@fcbayern.de
• ANNOUNCE: MUD-Dev conference, 26 and 27 March 2004 J C Lawrence
• MudWorld.Org Anthony R. Haslage
• New MMORPG from the Army Amanda Walker
• • New MMORPG from the Army Dave Rickey
  • • New MMORPG from the Army Amanda Walker
    • • New MMORPG from the Army Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• FedExing ghovs
• • FedExing Sean Middleditch
  • FedExing Ben Hawes
  • • FedExing Alistair Riddoch
    • • FedExing Jesus Lopez
      • • FedExing Alistair Riddoch
        • • FedExing Sean Middleditch
• Play styles and world interactionsistilldontwantitposted@phlange.com J C Lawrence
• Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Sean Middleditch
• • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval T H
  • • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Ben Hawes
    • • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Sean Middleditch
  • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Spot
  • • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Sean Middleditch
  • Death and Permadeath and Corpse Retrieval Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
• [DGN] Senior Focus Mentor Needed Andrew Budd
• [BIZ] HOW TO SCREW UP A PERFECTLY GOOD GAME COMPANY IN TEN EASY STEPS Michael Tresca
• [BIZ] TEN MORE EASY WAYS TO SCREW UP YOUR GAME COMPANY Michael Tresca
• Crafting systems Björn Morén
• Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex David Lyttle
• • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex eversilver@yahoo.com
  • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Chanur Silvarian
    • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Sean Howard
      • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Chanur Silvarian
        • • Do Quests need to be Fed-Ex Sean Howard
• Moving toward Massive Multiplay (was Congratulations Horizons...) Paul Schwanz
• • Moving toward Massive Multiplay (was Congratulations Horizons...) Mike Shaver
• ADMIN: Policy change J C Lawrence
• [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems ceo
• • [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems Erik Bethke
  • • [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems ceo
    • [TECH][TOOLS] SCM systems Jon A. Lambert
• Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
• • Problems with current RPGs Koster, Raph
  • • Problems with current RPGs Sean Howard
    • Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
    • • Problems with current RPGs Koster, Raph
      • • Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
        • • Problems with current RPGs David Johansson
    • Problems with current RPGs Yaka St.Aise
  • Problems with current RPGs Hans-Henrik Staerfeldt
  • • Problems with current RPGs Björn Morén
  • Problems with current RPGs Yaka St.Aise
• Character Perceptions John Buehler
• • Character Perceptions Derek Licciardi
  • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
    • • Character Perceptions ceo
      • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
  • Character Perceptions Scion Altera
  • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
  • Character Perceptions bjoernen@hotmail.com
  • • Character Perceptions John Buehler
• [BIZ] Warcraft Interview Michael Tresca
• • [BIZ] Warcraft Interview ceo
  • [BIZ] Warcraft Interview Björn Morén
• Raffle at the MUD-Dev Conference, March 27th and 28th 2004 Ann
• R: Moving toward Massive Multiplay (was CongratulationsHorizons...) Ghilardi Filippo
• Python script as stand alone MUD server... Jason Slaughter
• • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Sean Middleditch
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Jason Slaughter
    • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Sean Middleditch
      • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
        • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Kwon J. Ekstrom
        • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
      • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Byron Ellacott
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Mats Lidstrom
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... ceo
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
    • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... ceo
      • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
        • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Byron Ellacott
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Edward Glowacki
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Brian Hook
    • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Sean Middleditch
      • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Frank Crowell
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Byron Ellacott
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Mike Shaver
    • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Alistair Riddoch
  • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Thomas Clive Richards
  • • Python script as stand alone MUD server... Zach Collins {Siege}
• [BIZ] Apparent acquisition of Yantis (mysupersales) by IDE Rudy Fink
• • [BIZ] Apparent acquisition of Yantis (mysupersales) by IDE Bruce Mitchener
• Meaning and entertainment - Farming and FedExing (was Do players enjoy farming?) Michael Sellers
• Power games Ana Valdés
• • Power games Mats Lidstrom
  • • Power games Ana Valdés
  • Power games Byron Ellacott
  • • Power games Ana Valdés
• Mage 2 Mage gbtmud
• • Mage 2 Mage Travis Casey
• Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Brad King
• • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Chris
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Nick Yee
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Paul Schwanz
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Ola Fosheim Grøstad
  • Interpersonal Relations in Virtual Worlds Lee Faris
• Platform choice Gary Whitten
• MUD client popularity Brian Hook
• • MUD client popularity Frank Crowell
  • MUD client popularity Ammon Lauritzen
  • • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
    • • MUD client popularity Rayzam
      • • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
        • • MUD client popularity Rayzam
      • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
      • • MUD client popularity J C Lawrence
        • • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
    • MUD client popularity Travis Casey
    • • MUD client popularity Ammon Lauritzen
      • MUD client popularity Byron Ellacott
      • • MUD client popularity Frank Fisher
      • MUD client popularity ceo
      • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
      • • MUD client popularity Emil Nilimaa
        • • MUD client popularity Tom "cro" Gordon
          • • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
      • MUD client popularity Sean Middleditch
      • • MUD client popularity Zach Collins {Siege}
        • • MUD client popularity Sean Middleditch
  • MUD client popularity Alistair Riddoch
  • MUD client popularity Byron Ellacott
  • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
  • MUD client popularity Brian Hook
  • • MUD client popularity Sean Middleditch
    • MUD client popularity Edward Glowacki
    • MUD client popularity Brent P. Newhall
• SMOG - small multiuser online game Frank Crowell
• • SMOG - small multiuser online game Miroslav Silovic
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Frank Crowell
  • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Frank Crowell
    • SMOG - small multiuser online game Byron Ellacott
    • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • SMOG - small multiuser online game Byron Ellacott
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game Tom "cro" Gordon
    • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • SMOG - small multiuser online game Crosbie Fitch
  • • SMOG - small multiuser online game maddog
• [BUS] How to build an MMOG... ceo
• [DGN] Subjective randomness (was: The psychology of random numbers) Robert Zubek
• • [DGN] Subjective randomness (was: The psychology of random numbers) Felix A. Croes
  • • [DGN] Subjective randomness (was: The psychology of random numbers) Sean Kelly
• Solutions for smarter NPCs Björn Morén
• • Solutions for smarter NPCs ext.Christer.Enfors@tietoenator.com
  • • Solutions for smarter NPCs info@castwide.com
  • Solutions for smarter NPCs Kirinyaga
  • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Vincent Archer
    • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Valerio Santinelli
      • Solutions for smarter NPCs Olivier Lejade
      • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Kirinyaga
        • • Solutions for smarter NPCs Olivier Lejade
  • Solutions for smarter NPCs Michael Sellers