September 2002
- A "dev chat" with Brad McQuaid Vincent Archer
- Article on Griefers Rayzam
- Article on Griefers Stephen Miller
- Article on Griefers Michael R. Estepp
- Serialization, dealing with changing classes. Neil Edwards
- Serialization, dealing with changing classes. Sean Kelly
- Serialization, dealing with changing classes. Ammon Lauritzen
- Serialization, dealing with changing classes. Brian Lindahl
- TECH: Serialization, dealing with changing classes. Mark Kochanowski
- Ballerium: Interesting Game John Arras
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Valerio Santinelli
- Ballerium: Interesting Game John Robert Arras
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Crosbie Fitch
- Ballerium: Interesting Game shren
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Peter Tyson
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Valerio Santinelli
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Vincent Archer
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Mark Cheverton
- Ballerium: Interesting Game huserl@yahoo.com
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Adam
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Valerio Santinelli
- Ballerium: Interesting Game Jon A. Lambert
- Much Respect to JessicaM apollyon
- Much Respect to JessicaM Michael Tresca
- Much Respect to JessicaM Sean Kelly
- Much Respect to JessicaM Dave Rickey
- Much Respect to JessicaM Matt Mihaly
- Much Respect to JessicaM Michael Tresca
- Much Respect to JessicaM apollyon
- Much Respect to JessicaM Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Much Respect to JessicaM Sean Kelly
- Much Respect to JessicaM Michael Tresca
- Much Respect to JessicaM Paul Schwanz
- Much Respect to JessicaM Richard A. Bartle
- PK/PD (was Much Respect to JessicaM) justice@softhome.net
- MudDev - FAQ 1 Marian Griffith
- MudDev - FAQ 2 Marian Griffith
- [decentralization] Reputation device (fwd) J C Lawrence
- [decentralization] Reputation device (fwd) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- [decentralization] Reputation device (fwd) Crosbie Fitch
- ANNOUNCE: Open Betas Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- ANNOUNCE: Open Betas Vincent Archer
- ANNOUNCE: Open Betas Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- ANNOUNCE: Open Betas Mordengaard
- ANNOUNCE: Open Betas Mordengaard
- Charlie Munger on the Psychology of Human Misjudgment J C Lawrence
- Charlie Munger on the Psychology of Human Misjudgment [summary of points] Sasha Hart
- Point of View Ted L. Chen
- Point of View Shane P. Lee
- Point of View Damion Schubert
- Point of View justice@softhome.net
- Point of View Shane P. Lee
- Point of View listsub@wickedgrey.com
- Point of View justice@softhome.net
- Point of View John Robert Arras
- Point of View Ted L. Chen
- Point of View Ted L. Chen
- Commercialization of virtual spaces Koster, Raph
- Commercialization of virtual spaces Jessica Mulligan
- Commercialization of virtual spaces Derek Licciardi
- Commercialization of virtual spaces Mike Shaver
- Commercialization of virtual spaces Justin Stocks
- Commercialization of virtual spaces Russ Whiteman
- Commercialization of virtual spaces Justin Stocks
- Flexible Perl MUD-like Server Project Luke Parrish
- Flexible Perl MUD-like Server Project stanza
- Flexible Perl MUD-like Server Project Joshua Judson Rosen
- Flexible Perl MUD-like Server Project Lars Duening
- MMOG growth Matt Mihaly
- MMOG growth Koster, Raph
- MMOG growth Daniel James
- UO Advanced Character Service Christopher Allen
- UO Advanced Character Service Jessica Mulligan
- UO Advanced Character Service eric
- UO Advanced Character Service Jessica Mulligan
- UO Advanced Character Service Matt Mihaly
- UO Advanced Character Service Matt Mihaly
- UO Advanced Character Service Amanda Walker
- UO Advanced Character Service Matt Mihaly
- UO Advanced Character Service amanda@alfar.com
- UO Advanced Character Service Marc Bowden
- UO Advanced Character Service Ted L. Chen
- UO Advanced Character Service Freeman, Jeff
- UO Advanced Character Service Damion Schubert
- Storytelling in MMOGs article Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Jessica Mulligan
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Valerio Santinelli
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Paul Boyle
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Koster, Raph
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Ted L. Chen
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Poe, Lawrence
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Dave Rickey
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article SpY
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Freeman, Jeff
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article SpY
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Derek Licciardi
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Freeman, Jeff
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Marc DM
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Matt Mihaly
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Marc DM
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Matt Mihaly
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article holding99@mindspring.com
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Sean Kelly
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Marc DM
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Sean Kelly
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Mathieu Castelli
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Matt Mihaly
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Matt Owen
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Damion Schubert
- Game developers gear up for cyber wars Michael Tresca
- Online Games Resource Guide Valerio Santinelli
- Critique this combat system Britt Green
- Critique this combat system Paul Schwanz
- Critique this combat system Edward Glowacki
- Critique this combat system hart.s@attbi.com
- [TECH] new linux thread library coming for libc Bruce Mitchener
- Zhe4 shi4 shen2me zhan4? Richard A. Bartle
- Grouping in MMP Games Dave Rickey
- Grouping in MMP Games Clay
- Grouping in MMP Games Amanda Walker
- Grouping in MMP Games Alex Kay
- Player Created Content - The Holy Grail? Matthew Dobervich
- Player Created Content - The Holy Grail? Matt Mihaly
- Player Created Content - The Holy Grail? Sulka Haro
- Player Created Content - The Holy Grail? Matt Mihaly
- Player Created Content - The Holy Grail? Michael Tresca
- Emoticons: When was the "big bang?" Randolf Richardson
- Emoticons: When was the "big bang?" Darren Henderson
- Emoticons: When was the "big bang?" Elia Morling
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Dr. Cat
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Matt Mihaly
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Dave Rickey
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Matthew Dobervich
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Dr. Cat
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Mark Cheverton
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Zach Collins {Siege}
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Dr. Cat
- Massive Online Gaming magazine shren
- Massive Online Gaming magazine Peter Tyson
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Ted L. Chen
John Robert Arras Wrote
> On Sun, 22 Sep 2002 listsub@wickedgrey.com wrote:
> But it should be. You can do so much more then. Instead of
> attacking when players are there, set up populations and have them
> attack whenever they feel like it. Maybe players are there, maybe
> they aren't. Maybe they do something, maybe they don't. If they
> aren't there, then they could find out through news or rumors of
> some kind that propogate throughout the world. If you set up
> general "population" code, then you have to do it once, and never
> have to think about it again. And, if you improve the code, then
> you get improvements across the board.
[ lots of snippage ]
Not to harp on John - as he's not the only self-proscribed
simulationist on this list - but I roll my eyes whenever someone
offers the roaming wolf example as if that system would be stable
throughout the course of any game. Raph and some of the boys from
UO in the early days can probably attest to the stability of
programmed ecology systems.
So in hopes of helping people break out of the "Star Trek Simulation
Syndrome", I suggest that anyone seriously interested in simulation
as a tool for MMOGs to read up on:
"Road Maps: A Guide to Learning System Dynamics"
from the MIT System Dynamics in Education Project
http://sysdyn.mit.edu/road-maps/rm-toc.html
It's a useful primer if academic text-books strike fear in your
hearts. It's in small PDF chunks that start from the very beginning
and works its way up in complexity. The examples are based on their
learning program STELLA but I think most readers here are
comfortable enough with computers to make due without it.
Road Maps #1 through #5 will show you the basic structures.
Things get more interesting and applicable to MMOGs at Road Map #6,
where they start to combine the elements learned in "Economics
Supply and Demand" Something of interest for anyone interested in
player-driven economies. Most people assume equilibrium from the
get go, and the example serves to illustrate the oscillation that
occurs in even a simple system that uses the most basic of rules.
For those pondering a purely player-driven economy, I suggest you
take and play with the model. I've been playing with the effects of
demand noise and have destablized the system with only 15% noise.
If you want the matlab code or discuss the specifics in detail,
email me off list.
For those who wish for close-system ecologies, I suggest looking at:
"Generic Structures: S-shaped growth I" in Roadmap #5. "Oscillating
Systems 2: Sustained Oscillation" in Roadmap #8. then "Generic
Structures: Overshoot and Collapse" in Roadmap #9.
Overshoot and collapse is a behavior in which a stock, in the
case of Goldfield, the population of the town, relies upon a
depletable resource, gold. When the gold is abundant, the
population grows quickly. As the population grows, however, it
depletes the supply of gold. When gold becomes scarce, the
population drops rapidly as the miners leave to try their luck
elsewhere.
The first two are what I think most people expect with ecology
models. Birth, food, death. But those systems are only valid if
there are no external factors (or if those factors are constant).
So unless you keep your wolf population numbers independent of
everything else (including players) you're going to have an
interesting time keeping it active.
If you're still reading up to now and have thought that negative
feedback loops can solve everything, I can also point you toward
excellent textbooks on nonlinear control systems to disway you from
that theory.
So, are complex systems based on simple rules possible? Of course
they are. Nature is a prime example of that. But don't discount
all the natural extinctions that have occurred in the past. So
unless you're cool with resetting your players every few days,
losing all content you've created so far (wolf meat is no longer
available... they're extinct!), all in the attempt to find that rare
local equilibrium point, I really suggest reading up and
understanding what simulation can and cannot do.
So bringing it all back, John was making the point of coding the
rules of the dynamic systems, letting it run (based on those rules),
and generate the story from that. To which I have to say is
fiddlesticks. If you want an interesting story from such a system,
you're going to need a lot of factors and dependencies in that
simulation. And by "a lot", I mean any number greater than 3.
Which unfortunately, is already one too many.
TLC - Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) John Robert Arras
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Ted L. Chen
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) John Robert Arras
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Derek Licciardi
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Matthew Dobervich
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Travis Nixon
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Ted L. Chen
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Sasha Hart
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Ted L. Chen
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) hart.s@attbi.com
- Understanding Simulation (was: Point of View) Kwon J. Ekstrom
- MUD-Dev Storytelling in MMOGs article Clay
- Diamond Age (ex story telling in MMORPG) Mathieu Castelli
- visualization toosl for text mud builders... (aka automapper) fred@clift.org
- Understanding Simulation hart.s@attbi.com
- Understanding Simulation Damion Schubert
- Understanding Simulation Michael R. Estepp
- Understanding Simulation Ron Gabbard
- Understanding Simulation shren
- Understanding Simulation Sasha Hart
- Understanding Simulation shren
- Understanding Simulation Peter Harkins
- Understanding Simulation shren
- Future of MMOGs Valerio Santinelli
- Future of MMOGs Shane P. Lee
- Future of MMOGs Eric Lee {GAMES}
- Future of MMOGs Crosbie Fitch
- Future of MMOGs Koster, Raph
- Future of MMOGs Mike Shaver
- Future of MMOGs Crosbie Fitch
- Future of MMOGs Joe Andrieu
- Future of MMOGs Crosbie Fitch
- Future of MMOGs Jeremy Noetzelman
- Future of MMOGs Sean Kelly
- Future of MMOGs Dave Trump
- Future of MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- future of MMOGs Adam
- Future of MMOGs Brack, J. Allen
- Future of MMOGs Matt Mihaly
- Future of MMOGs Matt Chatterley
- Future of MMOGs Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Future of MMOGs Damion Schubert
- Future of MMOGs Derek Licciardi
- Future of MMOGs Jon A. Lambert
- Future of MMOGs Valerio Santinelli
- Future of MMOGs Travis Cannell
- Future of MMOGs Dr. Cat
- Future of MMOGs Crosbie Fitch
- Future of MMOGs Koster, Raph
- Future of MMOGs Crosbie Fitch
- Future of MMOGs Adam
- Future of MMOGs Amanda Walker