August 2002
- TECH: Path MTU Discovery Eli Stevens
- Matt's java problems.... Adam
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Kwon Ekstrom
- Non-traditional monsters? eric
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Damion Schubert
- Non-traditional monsters? Bruce Mitchener
- Non-traditional monsters? Edward Glowacki
- Non-traditional monsters? szii@sziisoft.com
- Non-traditional monsters? Nathan F. Yospe
- OT: Gen Con? Michael Tresca
- Unique items vs. item references Brian Hook
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Unique items vs. item references Bruce Mitchener
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Freeman, Jeff
- Unique items vs. item references Harrok
- Unique items vs. item references Zach Collins {Siege}
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Koster, Raph
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Character skill amplifying player skill Brian Hook
- Character skill amplifying player skill Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Character skill amplifying player skill Ling Lo
- narrative Bruce Mitchener
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Robert Zubek
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Sasha Hart
- narrative Benjamin Tolputt
- [Fwd: [Algorithms] ANNOUNCE: updated Chunked LOD demo] Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Brandon J. Van Every
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Jeff Lindsey
- (no subject) Karl Bastiman
- (no subject) Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Kristen Koster
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Shannon Appelcline
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Noetzelman
- Advertising Thread Amanda Walker
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Gaffney
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Michael Tresca
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- skills (was (no subject)) Travis Casey
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Crosbie Fitch
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Valerio Santinelli
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Russ Whiteman
- Socket Code Stephen Miller
- Socket Code Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Socket Code Blane Bramble
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Madrona Tree
- Origins of "carebear" Calandryll
- Origins of "carebear" Dave Trump
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- The total DBMS approach Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
- The total DBMS approach Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Sean Kelly
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Elia Mòˆrling
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Ian Macintosh
- Otherland Richard A. Bartle
- Efficiency in providing entertainment John Buehler
- Noncombat(and combat) skills WAS: (no subject) "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- Mountaineering and Athletics Brandon J. Van Every
- Mountaineering and Athletics Damion Schubert
- Mountaineering and Athletics John Buehler
- Mountaineering and Athletics Poe, Lawrence
- Mountaineering and Athletics Vincent Archer
- Noncombat(and combat) skills Jo Dillon
- Noncombat(and combat) skills "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Jack Britt
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Brandon J. Van Every
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Artovil
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Zach Collins {Siege}
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Phillip Lenhardt
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Richard A. Bartle
- Butterfly.net Matt Mihaly
- Butterfly.net Freeman, Jeff
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Mythology Articles Shannon Appelcline
- Item handling (was: Advertising Thread) Jeff Lindsey
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Marc Bowden
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Ron Gabbard
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Sage
- Social Networks Damion Schubert
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Tess Snider
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Michael Tresca
- Social Networks Marian Griffith
- Social Networks Zach Collins {Siege}
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Matthew Dobervich
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Nicolai Hansen
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks John Buehler
- Advertising Thread Edward Glowacki
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Val Trullinger
- Histories and Legends apollyon
- Histories and Legends Matthew Dobervich
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Edward Glowacki
- Histories and Legends Sasha Hart
- Advertising Thread Richard A. Bartle
- Where do you get you numbers? NetEngels@aol.com
- Where do you get you numbers? Dave Rickey
- Mud Advertising Matt Mihaly
- Mud Advertising Christopher Allen
- Mud Advertising Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Koster, Raph
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Lars Duening
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Dave Rickey
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Ted L. Chen
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Russ Whiteman
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Jon A. Lambert
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jeremy Noetzelman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Freeman, Jeff
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Vincent Archer
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Brack, J. Allen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Kwon J. Ekstrom
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients brian hook
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients apollyon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Travis Nixon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Paul Schwanz
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Justin Quimby
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Steve Dieter
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jesus Lopez
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Tess Snider
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christohe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Edward Glowacki
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients James Ross Nicoll
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Russ Whiteman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Ian Macintosh
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients damon baker
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Benjamin Tolputt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients David H. Loeser Jr.
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Crosbie Fitch
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Trump
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Damion Schubert
- Natural Selection and Communities Ron Gabbard
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities David Kennerly
From: Paul Schwanz <pschwanz@comcast.net> on Tuesday, August 27, 2002 09:53:
> I don't doubt that building this sort of flexibility into
> communities will require more effort and resources for designing
> and coding the game, but it seems to me that the benefits would
> vastly outweigh the costs.
> Or am I just not seeing the whole picture here?
I'll try to offer a little guidance from a perspective of having
seen the whole picture, from idea to scripting to customer support.
I've had similar ideas and tested them in a couple of graphical
MMORPGs. The experience changed me. Before then, I would have
nodded my head, "Yes." Below, I'm not shaking my head, "No." I'll
dissect what is vague. Vague ideas are doomed to the worst kind of
failure, the kind that doesn't even prove if the idea was bad or the
implementation was bad.
> Could not all of the above options be included in the charter/city
> creation interface?
What would be an example charter/city creation interface? What are
the menus and options? What are the resulting city algorithms of
each configuration?
> When the city is formed, let the founders decide which
> implementation will be best (with the possibility to change the
> charter at a later date through citizen vote...or not).
> This will then give players the freedom to choose from among a
> number of different possible implementations the approach they
> believe best addresses their own concerns.
_Their own concerns_ have no necessary correlation the game
operator's concerns or the populace's concerns.
> Variation, along with
> the natural, player-choice selection mechanism, will cause the
> most fit implementations to thrive and the least fit
> implementations to wither away.
The terms "natural selection," "player-choice," "mechanism," and
"fit implementations" hold too many tentative assumptions. These
vague terms delegate the problems without solving any one problem.
Please elaborate by example.
Please give an example of the selection mechanism. One form of
natural selection would be for the poor leaders to die--not their
characters, the players at home on their computers. Another form
would be for all players of a failing city to die, like captives on
a sinking ship--not the characters, the players.
What is the exact "player-choice" mechanism? Is it a marketplace, a
representative democracy, a meritocracy, a socialist democracy?
How?
Is a city chartered like a company? If so, what is the algorithm?
Who are the "players"? What makes player-choice selection superior
to expert-choice selection to decide the design of a service
subsystem?
Every online community developer should answer these questions in
hundreds of pages of painstaking detail. But to even casually
discuss the artful design of "natural selection" and "player-choice"
requires ample definition, detail, and example.
> If I don't like the community's implementation, I can find another
> community within the same MMORPG, but if I don't like the global
> implementation, I must look outside of the current MMORPG if I am
> to find the community that fits me.
You may, but do customers work this way? When a customer has one
bad experience, does he usually give the service another try? Or
does he usually give another service a try?
Imagine the situation was upsetting, like being player-killed in
Ultima Online, or being abused by a corrupt officer of the village
political system in Dark Ages.
> If you then design so that community growth leads to increased
> opportunities for individual success, won't this create an even
> stronger selection mechanism?
This overlooks the individuals for the group. The Tragedy of the
Commons appears: Everyone wants community growth a little, but the
ones in political power want political power a lot. Thus, every
decision is skewed away from community growth and skewed toward
personal power. Electing a new tyrant won't fix the broken system
that the players chose.
Not all communities want to be big. In Nexus The Kingdom of the
Winds in 1998, a game designer (me) created twelve advanced social
classes, called subpaths. These were specialized classes in the D&D
sense, but were also philosophical and had scripted social
structures. I began with Schwanz's premise that pressure to grow
would be sufficient. It wasn't. The leaders adhered to my lofty
ideals and thereby refused admittance to most applicants.
That was my social design mistake. I scripted, and my successor
(Kevin Saunders) scripted around 10% of the total game's assets for
the privelege of less than 5% of the population. Unlike the level
treadmill of many MUDs, EverQuest being well-known on MUD-Dev,
wherein top levels receive the best game assets, the showcase was
useless. One couldn't continue to play and pay to advance, as in a
level treadmill. One had to achieve human permission.
In another example, Dark Ages (1999) offers religions. I began to
script methods for reward to the largest or fastest growing
religions. However, I ran into three problems, so I didn't finish.
One, I didn't have a concrete mechanism; my idea was too vague.
Two, some religions were exclusive and enjoyed being so, which
resembles the problem with the Nexus subpaths.
Three, natural selection was working, but data suggested it was not
for the reasons I intended. As I collected data, I noticed a trend
that lead to an unencouraging interpretation. Location, location,
location. The population of each religion was inversely
proportional to the religion's temple's distance from the new player
village.
I had planned for this. I intentionally placed the most kind and
gregarious religion closest to the new player village. And the new
player village is not the only village players may have as a home.
Yet, it seemed that religion size was primarily a function of
something other than the religion's wise decisions. Therefore,
natural selection would not serve in this case. The nearest temple,
Glioca, would survive by its proximity, regardless of the quality of
its leadership.
Another misuse of natural selection is to ignore research. Some
choices should be made ahead of time, because they are optimal. The
point of natural selection is to arrive at an optimal.
One graphical MMORPG or MUD, Dark Ages (1999, www.darkages.com)
provided nearly Nomic-style natural selection. The game operator
(me) scripted rules ("Dark Ages Politics in Theory and Practice").
Having done it, I realized several things I should have _not_ left
up to the players to decide. I adminstered the players and
subsequently made it more fun by making it less player-controlled.
It was not a sandbox to begin with, so to hear tell of a sandbox
makes me shudder. While anything will work in the hands of angels
(handpicked or not), it is devils that will test your service's
design quality.
David - Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Peer-to-peer hosting of player created content in persistant worlds. Matthew Dobervich
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Sales data Luca Girardo
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Rayzam
- Sales data Robert A. Rice, Jr.
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Justin Quimby
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Paul Schwanz
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests damon baker
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Michael Tresca
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Muds and High School Textbooks Jon A. Lambert
- Unruly Players (fwd) J C Lawrence