August 2002
- TECH: Path MTU Discovery Eli Stevens
- Matt's java problems.... Adam
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Kwon Ekstrom
- Non-traditional monsters? eric
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Damion Schubert
- Non-traditional monsters? Bruce Mitchener
- Non-traditional monsters? Edward Glowacki
- Non-traditional monsters? szii@sziisoft.com
- Non-traditional monsters? Nathan F. Yospe
- OT: Gen Con? Michael Tresca
- Unique items vs. item references Brian Hook
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Unique items vs. item references Bruce Mitchener
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Freeman, Jeff
- Unique items vs. item references Harrok
- Unique items vs. item references Zach Collins {Siege}
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Koster, Raph
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Character skill amplifying player skill Brian Hook
- Character skill amplifying player skill Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Character skill amplifying player skill Ling Lo
- narrative Bruce Mitchener
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Robert Zubek
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Sasha Hart
- narrative Benjamin Tolputt
- [Fwd: [Algorithms] ANNOUNCE: updated Chunked LOD demo] Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Brandon J. Van Every
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Jeff Lindsey
- (no subject) Karl Bastiman
- (no subject) Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Kristen Koster
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Shannon Appelcline
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Noetzelman
- Advertising Thread Amanda Walker
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Gaffney
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Michael Tresca
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- skills (was (no subject)) Travis Casey
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Crosbie Fitch
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Valerio Santinelli
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Russ Whiteman
- Socket Code Stephen Miller
- Socket Code Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Socket Code Blane Bramble
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Madrona Tree
- Origins of "carebear" Calandryll
- Origins of "carebear" Dave Trump
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- The total DBMS approach Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
- The total DBMS approach Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Sean Kelly
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Elia Mòˆrling
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Ian Macintosh
- Otherland Richard A. Bartle
- Efficiency in providing entertainment John Buehler
- Noncombat(and combat) skills WAS: (no subject) "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- Mountaineering and Athletics Brandon J. Van Every
- Mountaineering and Athletics Damion Schubert
- Mountaineering and Athletics John Buehler
- Mountaineering and Athletics Poe, Lawrence
- Mountaineering and Athletics Vincent Archer
- Noncombat(and combat) skills Jo Dillon
- Noncombat(and combat) skills "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Jack Britt
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Brandon J. Van Every
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Artovil
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Zach Collins {Siege}
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Phillip Lenhardt
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Richard A. Bartle
- Butterfly.net Matt Mihaly
- Butterfly.net Freeman, Jeff
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Mythology Articles Shannon Appelcline
- Item handling (was: Advertising Thread) Jeff Lindsey
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Marc Bowden
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Ron Gabbard
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Sage
- Social Networks Damion Schubert
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Tess Snider
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Michael Tresca
- Social Networks Marian Griffith
- Social Networks Zach Collins {Siege}
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Matthew Dobervich
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Nicolai Hansen
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks John Buehler
- Advertising Thread Edward Glowacki
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Val Trullinger
- Histories and Legends apollyon
- Histories and Legends Matthew Dobervich
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Edward Glowacki
- Histories and Legends Sasha Hart
- Advertising Thread Richard A. Bartle
- Where do you get you numbers? NetEngels@aol.com
- Where do you get you numbers? Dave Rickey
- Mud Advertising Matt Mihaly
- Mud Advertising Christopher Allen
- Mud Advertising Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Koster, Raph
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Lars Duening
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Dave Rickey
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Ted L. Chen
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Russ Whiteman
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Jon A. Lambert
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jeremy Noetzelman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Freeman, Jeff
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Vincent Archer
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Brack, J. Allen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Kwon J. Ekstrom
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients brian hook
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients apollyon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Travis Nixon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
On Wed, 28 Aug 2002, Crosbie Fitch wrote:
> From: Nicolai Hansen
>> I would never trust any client to keep control of game sensitive
>> things. It WILL be hacked, and someone WILL give themselves
>> unlimited hitpoints :)
> Can we re-examine this dogma before it gets too entrenched? What
> proportion of players don't want to play by the rules, and would
> cheat given half a chance?
This likely depends on the game in question.
> If the majority of players are cheaters, does this imply something
> about players in general, or something about the particular game?
> I'd be suspicious that players who felt slightly miffed at paying
> for a game, may feel justified in rectifying their value for money
> by cheating.
I disagree. I think the subscription fee for a game determines
whether or not a person will play at all, and how they act in the
game has more to do with maximizing the value of their time in-game.
Players also tend to rationalize their behavior in-game and what
their "cheating" extends to generally has defined bounds. If a
skill system is too time consuming and repetitive, even a dedicated
player may not feel he is cheating by scripting the actions. If a
game is reward-based, a player with limited time or who is
status-oriented may feel he is not cheating by scripting something
associated with level or skill-gain.
> If the majority of players aren't cheaters, doesn't this then
> imply that the client is not necessarily in the hands of the
> enemy? The enemy is not the 'fair player', but the reprobate, the
> bitter, the immature, the cheater, etc.
The client is always in the hands of the enemy, so far as security
is concerned. In MMORPGs even wizards/administrators are not
trusted and generally subject to some sort of oversight. If not, a
single player/admin can cause quite a large stir. Remember the
incident where some of the UO GMs were caught creating items and
selling them on eBay or some such?
> Is there a way of creating a game (in the holistic sense) such
> that an extreme majority (90%) of players are fully inclined
> towards fair play, despite opportunities to cheat? Just like the
> problem of creating a housing estate where an extreme majority of
> its residents are disinclined to vandalise it, and even actively
> seek out and reprimand vandals rather than silently tolerate them?
I'd say the first step would be some sort of accountability, as well
as a means of reprisal by the other players of the game. If a
player builds a reputation for cheating, starting with a clean slate
should not be so simple as creating a new character. If a player
cheats, other players should also be able to do something aside from
remembering that player's name in an effort to avoid them in the
future. That is, there should be both immediate and durable
measures available. The immesiate measures are fairly obvious,
while durable measures could be as simple as, again, ensuring that
there is a way to identify the player account behind a character, so
a known reputation can be associated with that player regardless of
which character they play. If this appears to eliminate too much of
the immersion, perhaps it could be structured into some sort of
persistent reputation system.
> I'm wondering if all this talk of MMOG community building isn't
> simply a better way of exploiting the players from a profit based
> motive. If a community was truly involved in the game, even to the
> extent that the community owned the game, then I suspect there'd
> be far greater respect for fair play. How much do you think that
> players feel peeved that their work in terms of play and
> socialising (role play, guilding, etc.) is simply being sold back
> to them, i.e. they're not just being sold the infrastructure and
> environment?
Are you saying that players may resent the traditional subscription
model because they aren't involved in the creation of the game
dynamics? I agree up to a point. A player's commitment to a world
is proportional to their stake in that world. In static games like
Asheron's Call, players have no stake in the game aside from guild
associations, stories to tell, and items they've gained from
monsters. I quit playing for specifically this reason -- as a
player I had no way to make any lasting impact on the game world. I
had nothing to show for my time there and ultimately felt
disconnected from the world and the people there. What is a game
that resets 5 minutes after you pass but a carnival funhouse? The
more a player is actively involved in a game... the more a player
has a real stake in the development of that game the more desire
they will have to see that game prosper.
> All a player has in a virtual world is their identity, the ability
> to be recognised for their achievements, relationships, and
> experiences. To a large extent, this is all we have in the real
> world. When players find no value in identity, that there is more
> value in disruption or introverted activities, then there's
> something lacking in the virtual world.
I don't believe that there is any way to be recognized for your
achievements in the current crop of MMORPGs (though there is in some
MUDs). Further, I don't think that there ARE any achievements in
the current crop of MMORPGs. Time spent there is completely
forgettable.
> If you can create a game in which at least 90% of players quickly
> desire, and come to cherish their identity, then you have a game
> in which the client is not in the hands of the enemy. You have a
> game with a manageable amount of cheating. You can harness a tenth
> of the power of all of the clients to fully police them all.
I'd say that the client is still in the hands of the enemy, but it
is an enemy that is going to be more committed to the game and, if
the system allows, will actively police it for you.
> I find it difficult to believe that of the people who spend so
> much of their time playing a game that it's only a few who believe
> in fair play.
It doesn't help that the majority of people who have the time to
play MMORPGs are adolescents who haven't developed a firm sense of
morals yet anyway. Kohlberg's stages of moral development
(http://mentalhelp.net/psyhelp/chap3/chap3h.htm) offer an
interesting perspective. In this light, it may not matter how much
control you give players over a game if the majority of the
playerbase isn't capable of thinking about right and wrong in
abstract terms. The capricious vigilante justice of current games
may still prevail, only this time it will emply new tools and be in
defense of player-created content.
As it is a failing of most philosophers to carry an unrealistically
optimistic viewpoint of the average person, so I think it may be a
failing of game designers to carry an unrealistically optimistic
viewpoint of the average player. A better game design may improve
the quality of play, but it is likely that no game design can create
the virtual utopia that game designers tend to strive for. That
isn't to say that it isn't a worthwhile goal, only that designers
should also realize that it is likely also an impossible one.
IMO this is the great thing about NWN and its (hopefully more
persistent-world-oriented) successors. It's basically a MUD toolkit
in a box. If no single game design can keep players honest, perhaps
the next best thing is giving players a way to design their own game
as well as keep unwanted players out. If a greater community is
desired, servers can always be linked together. - TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Paul Schwanz
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Justin Quimby
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Steve Dieter
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jesus Lopez
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Tess Snider
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christohe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Edward Glowacki
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients James Ross Nicoll
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Russ Whiteman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Ian Macintosh
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients damon baker
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Benjamin Tolputt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients David H. Loeser Jr.
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Crosbie Fitch
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Trump
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Damion Schubert
- Natural Selection and Communities Ron Gabbard
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities David Kennerly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Peer-to-peer hosting of player created content in persistant worlds. Matthew Dobervich
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Sales data Luca Girardo
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Rayzam
- Sales data Robert A. Rice, Jr.
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Justin Quimby
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Paul Schwanz
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests damon baker
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Michael Tresca
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Muds and High School Textbooks Jon A. Lambert
- Unruly Players (fwd) J C Lawrence