August 2002
- TECH: Path MTU Discovery Eli Stevens
- Matt's java problems.... Adam
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Kwon Ekstrom
- Non-traditional monsters? eric
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Damion Schubert
- Non-traditional monsters? Bruce Mitchener
- Non-traditional monsters? Edward Glowacki
- Non-traditional monsters? szii@sziisoft.com
- Non-traditional monsters? Nathan F. Yospe
- OT: Gen Con? Michael Tresca
- Unique items vs. item references Brian Hook
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Unique items vs. item references Bruce Mitchener
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Freeman, Jeff
- Unique items vs. item references Harrok
- Unique items vs. item references Zach Collins {Siege}
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Koster, Raph
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Character skill amplifying player skill Brian Hook
- Character skill amplifying player skill Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Character skill amplifying player skill Ling Lo
- narrative Bruce Mitchener
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Robert Zubek
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Sasha Hart
- narrative Benjamin Tolputt
- [Fwd: [Algorithms] ANNOUNCE: updated Chunked LOD demo] Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Brandon J. Van Every
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Jeff Lindsey
- (no subject) Karl Bastiman
- (no subject) Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Kristen Koster
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Shannon Appelcline
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Noetzelman
- Advertising Thread Amanda Walker
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Gaffney
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Michael Tresca
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- skills (was (no subject)) Travis Casey
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Crosbie Fitch
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Valerio Santinelli
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Russ Whiteman
- Socket Code Stephen Miller
- Socket Code Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Socket Code Blane Bramble
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Madrona Tree
- Origins of "carebear" Calandryll
- Origins of "carebear" Dave Trump
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- The total DBMS approach Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
- The total DBMS approach Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Sean Kelly
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Elia Mòˆrling
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Ian Macintosh
- Otherland Richard A. Bartle
- Efficiency in providing entertainment John Buehler
- Noncombat(and combat) skills WAS: (no subject) "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- Mountaineering and Athletics Brandon J. Van Every
- Mountaineering and Athletics Damion Schubert
- Mountaineering and Athletics John Buehler
- Mountaineering and Athletics Poe, Lawrence
- Mountaineering and Athletics Vincent Archer
- Noncombat(and combat) skills Jo Dillon
- Noncombat(and combat) skills "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Jack Britt
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Brandon J. Van Every
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Artovil
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Zach Collins {Siege}
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Phillip Lenhardt
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Richard A. Bartle
- Butterfly.net Matt Mihaly
- Butterfly.net Freeman, Jeff
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Mythology Articles Shannon Appelcline
- Item handling (was: Advertising Thread) Jeff Lindsey
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Marc Bowden
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Ron Gabbard
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Sage
- Social Networks Damion Schubert
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Tess Snider
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Michael Tresca
- Social Networks Marian Griffith
- Social Networks Zach Collins {Siege}
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
From: "Sasha Hart" <Sasha.Hart@directory.reed.edu>
> [Dave Rickey]
>> They've succeeded because the classic Tank/Healer/Nuker group
>> dependancy triad is an extremely powerful engine for building
>> social links.
> This sounds interesting - would you mind spelling out how you
> think that engine works, e.g. what about the triad is important?
> At points you make general reference to the XP/loot incentive for
> cooperation - is the T/H/N triad mainly just a manifestation of
> the loot incentive for grouping, or something else?
The loot incentive is the goal, and T/H/N does not neccessarily have
to be the means used by players to reach it. However, players tend
to pursue the most efficient means of gaining reward, and because it
is always easier to coordinate the actions of one person than the
actions of three or more, there is a threshold of reward for
investment that grouping has to exceed before grouping becomes the
dominant form of play.
It may be that people are just naturally social creatures, and that
the main effect of T/H/N is indirect, it simply keeps the *same*
group of people together long enough to form the social ties. It
strikes me that pure chat spaces would create random networks, not
the clustered "scale free" networks that characterize stable social
fabrics.
>> you might have difficulty preventing some equivalent of the
>> "Tankmage" problem where your social engine is stalled out by
>> people who find the combination of gameplay elements that make
>> them independant from your social ties.
> Of course, as you may be suggesting, problems with class balance
> are only crucial to social connection insofar as everything is
> being pinned on the contingencies governing loot. So... provide
> reasons other than self-conscious "reward" (loot) to form social
> ties. Right?
I'm not sure if I agree with this statement or not. I think I am
reluctant to accept the viability of durable and extensive social
fabrics that are not at some level tied to reward. When you make
predictions of mass behaviour that are not grounded in individual
reward-seeking, you enter very shaky territory. Sure, we'd like to
think the world isn't full of selfish bastards, but the cynics
always seem to carry the day in the end.
>> The downside of weakness is immediate and visceral, the upside of
>> social ties is delayed and cerebral, and people in these games
>> overwhelmingly pursue the short-term payoff. The result is a
>> crowd of individuals with no social ties, who eventually reach
>> the limit of your gameplay and leave.
> Do people form social ties in real life just because there is
> nothing more immediate and visceral? Why is the game different?
Network theory discusses types of networks, from ordered to random.
Social networks fall into a category referred to as "scale free",
dominated by tightly connected clusters linked to each other by
"hubs". Random networks have certain advantages, most tied into
failure resistance and speed of communication, ordered networks have
other advantages such as consistency of behaviour and the ability to
act in a coordinated fashion. "Lumpy" scale free networks of
ordered clusters connected by random hubs seem to gain the best of
both worlds.
People form social ties because they evolved to want them, but that
only puts the question back one step, *why* was a desire for social
ties a survival mechanism? Evolution is definitely a
reward-directed process.
> I think you will find that many of the differences could be (or
> have been!) imported into games without too much
> difficulty. Neighborhoods, cities, special interest groups, clubs,
> conspiracies, ongoing reciprocal relationships, buddies from
> newbie school, jobs, bars, hierarchies... Certainly I think you
> are right to finger the cost of forming connections, but I think
> the natural approach is to reduce the absolute cost rather than to
> increase the cost of anything that remotely competes. I think the
> goal is to facilitate friendships, not to suppress independence
> per se (the two are not mutually exclusive.)
Let's say that a player in a new environment will engage in
bond-building with 10 people a day, and the more days they build
bonds with the same people, the stronger those bonds get. Further
assume there is a maximum amount of bonds they can maintain, say 50.
Acquaintances have a bond strength of 1, friends of 2, buddies of 3.
The environment has 1000 people in it, of which only 1 in 5 will be
in the world on any one day. If by the end of the 5th day he hasn't
got at least 3 buddies, he'll log out and never come back.
If your player comes in, bonds with 10 random people, and logs out,
he's got 10 acquaintances. If he logs in the next day and makes 10
more random social bonds, there is only a 1% chance that one of them
will be with one of the people he made an acquaintance with the day
before and become a friend. There is a 18% chance that he will
reach the end of 5 days without having made 1 friend, and there is
only a 16% chance he will have made a buddy, the chances he'll have
3 are miniscule.
Obviously people don't act this way, they pursue deeper
relationships with people they already know in preference to more
casual acquaintances. So, at the other extreme, if our player seeks
out any people he has met before making new acquaintances, he's
virtually certain to have around a dozen buddies at the end of 5
days. However, people in these games don't neccessarily act *that*
way either. How much he'll seek out others he's already met will be
a product of how hard they are to find, and how much he wants to
find them.
Communication features like /who, /tell, and friend lists act on one
side of that equation, trying to make it easier to contact people
you know. T/H/N acts on the other side, increasing your incentive
to find them. If communication features were so perfect that
contacting people you had already met required zero effort, would
that eliminate the need for an incentive?
However, although you would wind up with a thoroughly connected
society, it wouldn't be a good social network, because Jack may be
your buddy, and Jill may be your buddy, but J&J are essentially
random strangers to each other, there is no reason for your buddies
to be buddies with each other. T/H/N addresses *that*, if you're a
tank, and Jack is a Healer, and Jill is a Nuker, and you ask these
two buddies to join you for a few rounds of whack-a-gnoll, now
*they* can become buddies. Presto, Jack, Jill, and you are now the
seed crystal for a cluster. If you don't log in the next day but
Jack and Jill do, Jack can ask his other tank friend John to fill
in. Bam, now John is Jill's friend, and so it goes.
Somewhere along the line, you start hitting the limits on how many
connections people can sustain, and things stabilize into a closely
coupled cluster where most of the connections for each person in the
cluster are to other people in the cluster, and any open links are
usually filled from inside the cluster. Sound like anything we see
in these games?
--Dave - Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Matthew Dobervich
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Nicolai Hansen
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks John Buehler
- Advertising Thread Edward Glowacki
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Val Trullinger
- Histories and Legends apollyon
- Histories and Legends Matthew Dobervich
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Edward Glowacki
- Histories and Legends Sasha Hart
- Advertising Thread Richard A. Bartle
- Where do you get you numbers? NetEngels@aol.com
- Where do you get you numbers? Dave Rickey
- Mud Advertising Matt Mihaly
- Mud Advertising Christopher Allen
- Mud Advertising Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Koster, Raph
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Lars Duening
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Dave Rickey
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Ted L. Chen
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Russ Whiteman
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Jon A. Lambert
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jeremy Noetzelman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Freeman, Jeff
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Vincent Archer
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Brack, J. Allen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Kwon J. Ekstrom
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients brian hook
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients apollyon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Travis Nixon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Paul Schwanz
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Justin Quimby
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Steve Dieter
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jesus Lopez
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Tess Snider
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christohe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Edward Glowacki
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients James Ross Nicoll
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Russ Whiteman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Ian Macintosh
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients damon baker
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Benjamin Tolputt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients David H. Loeser Jr.
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Crosbie Fitch
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Trump
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Damion Schubert
- Natural Selection and Communities Ron Gabbard
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities David Kennerly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Peer-to-peer hosting of player created content in persistant worlds. Matthew Dobervich
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Sales data Luca Girardo
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Rayzam
- Sales data Robert A. Rice, Jr.
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Justin Quimby
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Paul Schwanz
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests damon baker
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Michael Tresca
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Muds and High School Textbooks Jon A. Lambert
- Unruly Players (fwd) J C Lawrence