August 2002
- TECH: Path MTU Discovery Eli Stevens
- Matt's java problems.... Adam
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
- Non-traditional monsters? Kwon Ekstrom
- Non-traditional monsters? eric
- Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
- Non-traditional monsters? Damion Schubert
- Non-traditional monsters? Bruce Mitchener
- Non-traditional monsters? Edward Glowacki
- Non-traditional monsters? szii@sziisoft.com
- Non-traditional monsters? Nathan F. Yospe
- OT: Gen Con? Michael Tresca
- Unique items vs. item references Brian Hook
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Unique items vs. item references Bruce Mitchener
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references shren
- Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Freeman, Jeff
- Unique items vs. item references Harrok
- Unique items vs. item references Zach Collins {Siege}
- Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Koster, Raph
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
- Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
- Unique items vs. item references Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
- Unique items vs. item references Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
- Character skill amplifying player skill Brian Hook
- Character skill amplifying player skill Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Character skill amplifying player skill Ling Lo
- narrative Bruce Mitchener
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Robert Zubek
- narrative Brandon J. Van Every
- narrative Sasha Hart
- narrative Benjamin Tolputt
- [Fwd: [Algorithms] ANNOUNCE: updated Chunked LOD demo] Bruce Mitchener
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Brandon J. Van Every
- (no subject) Jack Britt
- (no subject) Jeff Lindsey
- (no subject) Karl Bastiman
- (no subject) Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Kristen Koster
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Shannon Appelcline
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Rayzam
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Noetzelman
- Advertising Thread Amanda Walker
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Jeremy Gaffney
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Advertising Thread Michael Tresca
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- skills (was (no subject)) Travis Casey
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Crosbie Fitch
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Valerio Santinelli
- The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Russ Whiteman
- Socket Code Stephen Miller
- Socket Code Smith, David {Lynchburg}
- Socket Code Blane Bramble
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- Origins of "carebear" Madrona Tree
- Origins of "carebear" Calandryll
- Origins of "carebear" Dave Trump
- Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
- The total DBMS approach Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
- The total DBMS approach Derek Licciardi
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Sean Kelly
- The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
- The total DBMS approach Elia Mòˆrling
- The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The total DBMS approach Ian Macintosh
- Otherland Richard A. Bartle
- Efficiency in providing entertainment John Buehler
- Noncombat(and combat) skills WAS: (no subject) "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- Mountaineering and Athletics Brandon J. Van Every
- Mountaineering and Athletics Damion Schubert
- Mountaineering and Athletics John Buehler
- Mountaineering and Athletics Poe, Lawrence
- Mountaineering and Athletics Vincent Archer
- Noncombat(and combat) skills Jo Dillon
- Noncombat(and combat) skills "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Jack Britt
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Brandon J. Van Every
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Artovil
- They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Zach Collins {Siege}
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Phillip Lenhardt
- What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Richard A. Bartle
- Butterfly.net Matt Mihaly
- Butterfly.net Freeman, Jeff
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
- Mythology Articles Shannon Appelcline
- Item handling (was: Advertising Thread) Jeff Lindsey
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Marc Bowden
- Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
- Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
- Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
- Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Advertising Thread Zach Collins {Siege}
- Advertising Thread Ron Gabbard
- Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
From: "Brian 'Psychochild' Green" <brian@psychochild.org>
> Dave Rickey wrote:
>> Another property of networks is how much connectivity they have,
>> basicly defined by how many links the average node has. An
>> example of low vs. high connectivity would be to contrast
>> old-style neighborhoods with modern suburbia.
> Actually, how well you connect to the social fabric tends to be a
> function of size, in my experience. People in smaller towns still
> do know everyone in town and new people tend to be absorbed into
> the social fabric easier. In larger towns, you tend to get a lot
> more of the impersonal feeling you describe.
I was actually thinking of urban neighborhoods rather than small
towns. I'm not sure absolute size really has as much to do with it
on that level, so much as there is nothing in my neighborhood to
make us want to interact, or even have much opportunity. Why would
I want to interact with my neighbors, and when would I do it?
> One reason is due to the frequency of contact with other people.
> In a smaller town, you are much more likely to run into your
> neighbors on your way to work (or even at work), at a restaurant,
> or at the local watering hole. In a large city, you could
> potentially never run into your neighbors while you are out and
> about in town. I've heard many stories about people talking about
> the same effect in online RPGs; they meet a friendly face once
> then never see that person again.
An alternative theory is that as increased mobility and
communication made it easier to form relationships with people other
than those most physically proximate to you, the density of
neighborhood links inevitably declined.
> So, I think you can define it more in terms of of shared
> experiences. If you work with your neighbors, eat with your
> neighbors, and go out drinking with your neighbors, you are more
> likely to get to know them since you share common events in your
> life. People who share repeated experiences in a game are more
> likely to form social bonds that those that brush against each
> other a few times.
Exactly, but then the question becomes how do you encourage people
to have repeated mutual experiences rather than randomly bouncing
off of each other? Maybe advancement-based systems aren't all bad,
after all they do reduce the pool of people you will interact with
to those closer to your level, and thereby increase your
interactions with any particular individual?
>> I believe the reason why Motor City Online has been so marginal
>> is because it has no group objectives at all, only individual
>> goals.
> Really, MCO should have done better. I'm not a huge fan,
> personally, but one of my good friends is a huge fanatic of the
> series. The previous Motor City games practically screamed to be
> put online for people to compete against each other. MCO seemed
> to be a natural extension of the direction the game was already
> going. The game was obviously going to appeal to the fans of
> "classic" cars, which means that the players in the game already
> have a shared experience to start them off.
MCO was a great concept that could have done much better...as a
boxed title with free internet play and an integrated
matchmaker/chat client. As an MMOG on a pay-for-play model, it was
doomed.
> People don't continue to play our games so that they can fill one
> of the "tank, healer, nuker" roles and have to rely on people to
> fill in the other 2 roles. People stick around in our games for
> community. If you don't provide a means for people to form the
> community, then the community obviously won't form. Sure you can
> form a community by forcing people into certain roles that rely on
> each other, but this is not the only way.
Maybe not, but it works. I'm not arguing that it is the *only* way,
only that it does in fact work, although it emerged almost by
accident and we only now are getting the conceptual framework to
understand why. I'm pretty certain that dependancy relationships
are in fact essential to creating durable communities, but I
strongly doubt that T/H/N is the only viable set of relationships.
>> The problem with the concepts thrown around for many potential
>> MMOG's are not that the game appeals to people outside the geek
>> fraternity, but because they offer no obvious hooks on which to
>> hang a small-scale group experience, few social ties are
>> generated and most of those tend to be of the weakest sort, the
>> casual bantering of people who happen to be doing the same thing
>> in the same "place".
> Honestly, can you say this is different than what most current
> games offer? If you don't come into the game with a group of
> friends, then you form friends by waiting for a group in a
> populated spawn point so that you can engage in "the casual
> bantering of people who happen to be doing the same thing in the
> same 'place'." From this casual bantering you form a regular
> group of people that you hunt and chat with, and usually you
> eventually get introduced to the larger social group, the player
> guild.
In my response to Jeff Freeman, I detailed why the networks that
result from casual banter versus those of mixed-capability groups
differ, essentially one creates a randomly linked network and the
other creates clusters.
At the core of the game, I think you need a dependancy relationship
that pushes the players to form these clusters. Without it, you
won't have a community. You point out that M59 doesn't have such
dependancies, is it possible that is why EQ (which in other gameplay
aspects is very similar) had explosive growth and M59 did not
(because dependancy does not arise outside of PvP, which represents
a higher threshold)?
> Guild connections tend to be the strongest in larger games because
> of frequency of interaction. In a game without a true global chat
> channel, particularly one with such limited global channels like
> DAoC, a global guild channel allows you to interact with a wide
> selection of people, to find other people you can get along with,
> and form the bonds into the social fabric that are necessary for
> the player to stick around after the gameplay has gone stale.
I see no evidence to indicate truly global channels are inherently
desirable. At some level, community formation is not just finding
people you get along with, but excluding those with whom you do not.
>> Now, that is not neccessarily an insurmountable barrier,
>> certainly one could build a socializing core into many different
>> games. But without building it around such a core and keeping it
>> constantly in mind, you might have difficulty preventing some
>> equivalent of the "Tankmage" problem where your social engine is
>> stalled out by people who find the combination of gameplay
>> elements that make them independant from your social ties.
> There are ways to encourage people to work together beyond your
> "triad" of fantasy roles. Again, Meridian 59 has no specific
> focus on these roles; healers are ignored due to the pacing in
> combat, just like in DAoC RvR, and nukers were pretty weak for
> most of the game's commercial history. However, the simple fact
> that numbers provide a significant advantage in a combat situation
> where you can't easily exploit a stupid AI system provides all the
> incentive you need for people to form bonds in the game.
After how long? In DAoC, the incentive to group arrives around
level 10, which is about the same time most new players have
mastered the basic gameplay and are able to concern themselves with
such things. In UO during the Dread Lord era, it arrived (in the
form of PK) the minute you logged in. Too late may be as bad as too
early.
>> What struck me as I was writing this the first time was how much
>> more applicable network theory had been to this problem than any
>> other approach I had seen. A previously intractable problem,
>> explaining why some games developed robust communities and some
>> didn't, becomes painfully obvious when analyzed as a problem in
>> network theory (the magic word is "criticality").
> While I don't discredit network theory as a means to explain the
> social connections in the game, I do think you are ignoring other
> methods for players to be introduced and to work into the social
> network. How people get involved in the network is probably more
> interesting than the network they form from a game developer's
> point of view. Once people are initiated and ingrained into the
> social network of the game, they will often find it very hard to
> leave that network with it's familiar, comfortable connections.
I'm not ignoring them, or trying to argue that T/H/N is the only
means of socializing the players. It could quite easily be the
worst method...except for the others that have been tried. If we
can get a better understanding of why it works, maybe we can find or
adapt others to serve the same function. But "natural" social
networks form linked clusters for good reasons, many of which apply
as much to MMOG communities as to "real" ones.
Anyway, trust networks are all about dependancy relationships. We
only trust others because we must.
--Dave - Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Sage
- Social Networks Damion Schubert
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Harrok
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks Tess Snider
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
- Social Networks Paul Schwanz
- Social Networks Michael Tresca
- Social Networks Marian Griffith
- Social Networks Zach Collins {Siege}
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Koster, Raph
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Matthew Dobervich
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Jeff Cole
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Nicolai Hansen
- Social Networks Dave Rickey
- Social Networks Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Social Networks Sasha Hart
- Social Networks Matt Mihaly
- Social Networks John Buehler
- Advertising Thread Edward Glowacki
- Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends paul.schwanz@sun.com
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Matt Mihaly
- Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
- Histories and Legends Val Trullinger
- Histories and Legends apollyon
- Histories and Legends Matthew Dobervich
- Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
- Histories and Legends Edward Glowacki
- Histories and Legends Sasha Hart
- Advertising Thread Richard A. Bartle
- Where do you get you numbers? NetEngels@aol.com
- Where do you get you numbers? Dave Rickey
- Mud Advertising Matt Mihaly
- Mud Advertising Christopher Allen
- Mud Advertising Brian 'Psychochild' Green
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Koster, Raph
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Lars Duening
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Dave Rickey
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Ted L. Chen
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Russ Whiteman
- Online World Timeline slashdotted Jon A. Lambert
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jeremy Noetzelman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Freeman, Jeff
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Vincent Archer
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Brack, J. Allen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Kwon J. Ekstrom
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients brian hook
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients apollyon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Travis Nixon
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Paul Schwanz
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Justin Quimby
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Steve Dieter
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jesus Lopez
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Tess Snider
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christohe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Bruce Mitchener
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Edward Glowacki
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients James Ross Nicoll
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Russ Whiteman
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Ian Macintosh
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients damon baker
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients Benjamin Tolputt
- TECH: Trusting Network Clients David H. Loeser Jr.
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Crosbie Fitch
- Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Dave Trump
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
- Natural Selection and Communities Damion Schubert
- Natural Selection and Communities Ron Gabbard
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
- Natural Selection and Communities David Kennerly
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
- Peer-to-peer hosting of player created content in persistant worlds. Matthew Dobervich
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Sales data Luca Girardo
- Sales data Richard A. Bartle
- Sales data Rayzam
- Sales data Robert A. Rice, Jr.
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Justin Quimby
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Paul Schwanz
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests damon baker
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Michael Tresca
- Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
- Muds and High School Textbooks Jon A. Lambert
- Unruly Players (fwd) J C Lawrence