August 2002

• TECH: Path MTU Discovery Eli Stevens
• Matt's java problems.... Adam
• Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
• • Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
  • Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
    • • Non-traditional monsters? Kwon Ekstrom
      • Non-traditional monsters? eric
      • • Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
      • Non-traditional monsters? Damion Schubert
  • Non-traditional monsters? Bruce Mitchener
  • Non-traditional monsters? Edward Glowacki
  • Non-traditional monsters? szii@sziisoft.com
  • Non-traditional monsters? Nathan F. Yospe
• OT: Gen Con? Michael Tresca
• Unique items vs. item references Brian Hook
• • Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
  • • Unique items vs. item references shren
    • • Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
      • • Unique items vs. item references lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
        • Unique items vs. item references Bruce Mitchener
        • • Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
      • Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
      • • Unique items vs. item references shren
        • • Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
          • Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
          • • Unique items vs. item references Freeman, Jeff
            • Unique items vs. item references Harrok
            • Unique items vs. item references Zach Collins {Siege}
            • • Unique items vs. item references Rayzam
          • Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
      • Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
    • Unique items vs. item references Koster, Raph
    • Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
    • • Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
      • • Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
  • Unique items vs. item references Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
  • Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
  • Unique items vs. item references Smith, David {Lynchburg}
  • • Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
• Character skill amplifying player skill Brian Hook
• • Character skill amplifying player skill Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • Character skill amplifying player skill Ling Lo
• narrative Bruce Mitchener
• • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
  • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
    • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
      • • narrative John Buehler
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
        • narrative Jeff Lindsey
        • narrative Bruce Mitchener
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
          • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
          • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
        • narrative Nathan F. Yospe
      • narrative Joe Andrieu
      • • narrative Dave Rickey
        • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
          • • narrative Dave Rickey
            • narrative John Robert Arras
            • • narrative Dave Rickey
              • • narrative Jeremy Noetzelman
                • • narrative dmiles@users.sourceforge.net
                • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                • • narrative Dave Rickey
          • narrative Joe Andrieu
        • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
        • • narrative Brad Roberts
          • • narrative Matt Mihaly
            • • narrative dmiles@users.sourceforge.net
              • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • • narrative Vincent Archer
                  • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                    • • narrative Vincent Archer
                    • narrative Damion Schubert
                • narrative Ron Gabbard
                • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                  • narrative Matt Mihaly
        • narrative John Robert Arras
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
          • • narrative John Robert Arras
              On Thu, 15 Aug 2002, Brandon J. Van Every wrote:
              > John Robert Arras:
              
              >> I think the details are what separate good writing from bad
              >> writing. If you want to have compelling narrative, you have to
              >> control the details.
              
              > Yes! As the writers say, the tale is in the telling.
              
              > To be more mathematically rigorous about it, good writing is a
              > global problem with tremendous complexity of elements.
              
              I agree with this. You can't just focus on the details of the
              world. You must have a global perspective and the ability to control
              things from the world scale down to the details.
              
              > Engineer-heads try to treat it like it's a collection of local
              > problems, something you can just chop up into constituent and
              > interchangeable components. As you chop up the writing into
              > components, you lose information. Because the writing contains
              > little information, it is not terribly compelling, it feels
              > generic. Some players are highly imaginative and will impose
              > their own vision upon the components, but the vast majority of
              > consumers will say "This is boring, this sucks." A real writer
              > integrates his components. The integration is what you still need
              > a human being for, and we will have that need until the advent of
              > Strong AI.
              
              However... If I had a really good simulation of the world and let it
              run, then people experiencing the simulation wouldn't be bored. They
              would find interesting things to do because the simulation is
              complex enough. Getting a simulation this complex is probably as
              hard as getting strong AI, but it would do what I want it to
              do. This is where I'm trying to go.
              
              >> On the other hand, if you want to have an interactive game, then
              >> you have to lose control of the details. If you want a _really_
              >> interactive game, then the player has to be able to affect more
              >> than just the details. You probably have to let the whole story
              >> go and let the "the story" be created on the fly. I don't see any
              >> way to create a compelling "interactive narrative" since the two
              >> ideas seem to contradict each other.
              
              > Here, I think you're recreating the commonly received mythology.
              > Storyline and interactivity, oil and water, blah blah blah. An
              > alternate thesis: interactivity is a psychological illusion. You
              > do not interact, you go exactly wherever the game designer already
              > envisioned you could go. What about Diablo II disproves this?
              > Yet, people say Diablo II is interactive. What about Donkey Kong
              > disproves this? Nothing.
              
              I still think they're opposites. Diablo II isn't really interactive.
              I am slowly coming to the realization that anything where there are
              predetermined endpoints or directions I have to go in don't cut it
              as "interactive" for me. I will discuss this in the end notes on
              randomness.
              
              > When you pursue interactive writing as techniques of illusion,
              > possibilities open up. You do not have to shunt a player down a
              > path. You can restrict him to an area, knowing that he will
              > wander around probably for T time before running into the next
              > item of interest. You can control the size of area A and time
              > variables T. You can summon events E to push / pull / prod the
              > player along. Yet the player believes he has interactivity,
              > because he has some freedom of movement. People make the mistake
              > of thinking they must grant players *all* freedom of movement. It
              > is only important to grant *some* freedom of movement, that is how
              > the illusion of interactivity is maintained.
              
              I want to create a world and let players play in it without me
              trying to push or prod them to do anything. I think given enough
              complexity and size in the simulation, they won't run out of things
              to do since new things will always be happening and there will
              always be reasons to go back to places they explore as the world
              changes. If I know that what I'm doing here doesn't really matter
              and I'm in a holding cell until the gate opens and I can go to the
              next cell, I'm not feeling really interactive. The issue is then
              that the player is reduced to being an observer (and I think players
              can tell this) so the level of effort required to stave off the
              boredom is much higher.
              
              > Also, you maintain the illusion by capturing the player's focus.
              > If he very much wants to read and follow up on some particular
              > thing, then he won't notice that he's *willingly* following the
              > storyline. When you randomize storylines, you throw out the
              > writer's best tool, his ability to be fascinating. Random events
              > are fascinating only on occasion. It's the luck of the draw.
              > Much is made of emergent behavior's potential; little is confessed
              > of how fun these abortion experiments are in practice. If you
              > really wanted the experiment, you'd be happy as a research
              > scientist. You wouldn't need entertainment! Entertainment is
              > prepackaging, it's compressed experience. Not the occasional
              > exciting discovery in a sea of boring unknowns.
              
              What story? What focus? The player doesn't have to be an observer
              that's eating up the story that you premade. The player can be a
              participant. The problem here is that you want the player to follow
              YOUR story. I don't think there's a story. Or at least there doesn't
              have to be a story. There's a world. Just like our world. If you
              make it complex enough, it won't get boring. That's all that I care
              about. Enough interesting things can happen that the players won't
              get bored. So it's like research for me. I admit the reason that I
              work on this is that it's the most interesting math problem that
              I've ever seen. :) Secondly, it's about making the kind of game that
              I want to play.
              
              I am not interested in writing stories. I am interested in keeping
              the player from being bored. I want to generate enough interesting
              events in the world that the players will no get bored. That's
              it. It's not the same thing as writing stories, but it doesn't mean
              that it's automatically boring, either.
              
              Let me end this with a question about randomness. What is the most
              complex random "quest generator" or "event generator" that you can
              think of for a world? I get the impression from your counterexamples
              that you're thinking about this in terms of random encounters that
              just get poofed out of nowhere and don't mean anything. I am not
              talking about random encounters in this sense. Those things are
              shallow and don't come close to the complexity of what I'm talking
              about.
              
              Imagine Diablo II where every map in the entire game is loaded into
              memory at once and every creature on every map exists at all times.
              The creatures work together within their local groups to try to take
              over or rule their little part of the world. Imagine that they lash
              out and raid other parts of the world and try to take over the whole
              world. They build cities and take over cities and destroy each
              others' cities and they make alliances with each other. Then,
              imagine that the world is much larger. If I played in a game like
              that where I started out as a nobody and the whole world was dynamic
              and there were ways for me to change the world (slowly and with
              great effort), I doubt that I would ever get bored. Since players
              will always overrun AI's eventually, add in a few factions of
              players that each try to take over the world and control the armies
              and societies and kingdoms of the world, and you have a game that
              won't get boring. Everything you do makes a difference and you
              really don't know what's going to happen. And the game is large
              enough that you can't completely change the world without a lot of
              long-term effort being expended.
              
              It's not storytelling or narrative or writing, but I also think that
              it's not boring. This is the direction I want to take and this is
              not just pie-in-the-sky talk. This is really what I've done with my
              codebase and the main thing holding me back from opening it is that
              I hate building zones and I don't have enough of a world created to
              have the size and complexity that I want. It's about creating a huge
              number of global events (that follow from within a simulation) so
              that the players can't possibly predict or even know what to expect
              far into the future. It's about making something where players can
              really change the world that they're experiencing. It's not writing,
              but that doesn't mean that it's boring, because players do get
              strong interactivity.
              
              John
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
  • narrative Robert Zubek
  • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
    • • narrative Robert Zubek
      • narrative Ted L. Chen
    • narrative dmiles@users.sourceforge.net
  • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
  • • narrative Joe Andrieu
    • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
      • • narrative Joe Andrieu
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
          • • narrative Freeman, Jeff
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • narrative John Buehler
              • narrative Vincent Archer
              • narrative Paul E. Schwanz, II
            • narrative Amanda Walker
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Jeremy Noetzelman
                • narrative Amanda Walker
                • narrative Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
                • narrative Zach Collins {Siege}
                • narrative Dave Rickey
              • narrative Ron Gabbard
              • • narrative Amanda Walker
                • • narrative Sasha Hart
            • narrative Christopher Kohnert
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                  • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                    • narrative Damion Schubert
                    • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • narrative Zach Collins {Siege}
          • narrative Bruce Mitchener
          • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
            • narrative Joe Andrieu
    • narrative Nathan F. Yospe
  • narrative Sasha Hart
  • narrative Benjamin Tolputt
• [Fwd: [Algorithms] ANNOUNCE: updated Chunked LOD demo] Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) Jack Britt
• • (no subject) Brandon J. Van Every
  • • (no subject) Jack Britt
    • • (no subject) Jeff Lindsey
      • (no subject) Karl Bastiman
    • (no subject) Zach Collins {Siege}
• Advertising Thread Rayzam
• • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
    • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
    • Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
    • • Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
      • • Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
        • • Advertising Thread Kristen Koster
    • Advertising Thread Rayzam
    • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
      • • Advertising Thread Shannon Appelcline
        • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
        • Advertising Thread Rayzam
        • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
        • • Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
          • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
            • • Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
            • • Advertising Thread Jeremy Noetzelman
              • Advertising Thread Amanda Walker
              • • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
            • Advertising Thread Jeremy Gaffney
        • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
        • • Advertising Thread Michael Tresca
  • Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
  • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
• skills (was (no subject)) Travis Casey
• The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Derek Licciardi
• • The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Crosbie Fitch
  • The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Valerio Santinelli
  • The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Russ Whiteman
• Socket Code Stephen Miller
• • Socket Code Smith, David {Lynchburg}
  • Socket Code Blane Bramble
• Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
• • Origins of "carebear" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • • Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
  • Origins of "carebear" Madrona Tree
  • • Origins of "carebear" Calandryll
    • Origins of "carebear" Dave Trump
  • Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
• The total DBMS approach Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
• • The total DBMS approach Derek Licciardi
  • • The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
    • • The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • • The total DBMS approach Sean Kelly
        • The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
        • The total DBMS approach Elia Mörling
  • The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • • The total DBMS approach Ian Macintosh
• Otherland Richard A. Bartle
• • Otherland shren
  • • Otherland Richard A. Bartle
    • • Otherland shren
  • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • • Otherland Richard A. Bartle
    • • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • Otherland Dan Homerick
• Efficiency in providing entertainment John Buehler
• Noncombat(and combat) skills WAS: (no subject) "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
• Mountaineering and Athletics Brandon J. Van Every
• • Mountaineering and Athletics Damion Schubert
  • • Mountaineering and Athletics John Buehler
    • • Mountaineering and Athletics Poe, Lawrence
  • Mountaineering and Athletics Vincent Archer
• Noncombat(and combat) skills Jo Dillon
• • Noncombat(and combat) skills "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
• They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Jack Britt
• • They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Brandon J. Van Every
  • They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Artovil
  • They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Zach Collins {Siege}
• What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Phillip Lenhardt
• • What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Richard A. Bartle
• Butterfly.net Matt Mihaly
• • Butterfly.net Freeman, Jeff
  • • Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
  • Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
• Mythology Articles Shannon Appelcline
• Item handling (was: Advertising Thread) Jeff Lindsey
• Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
• • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
    • • Advertising Thread Marc Bowden
      • • Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
      • Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
  • • Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
    • • Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
      • • Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
        • • Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
          • • Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
            • • Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
        • Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
        • • Advertising Thread Zach Collins {Siege}
          • • Advertising Thread Ron Gabbard
  • Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
• Social Networks Dave Rickey
• • Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
    • • Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
      • Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
      • • Social Networks Harrok
        • • Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
          • Social Networks Sage
          • • Social Networks Damion Schubert
          • Social Networks Matt Mihaly
          • • Social Networks Harrok
            • • Social Networks Matt Mihaly
        • Social Networks Tess Snider
        • • Social Networks Paul Schwanz
          • • Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
            • • Social Networks Paul Schwanz
              • • Social Networks Michael Tresca
                • Social Networks Marian Griffith
                • • Social Networks Zach Collins {Siege}
  • Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
  • Social Networks Koster, Raph
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
  • Social Networks Sasha Hart
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
    • • Social Networks Koster, Raph
      • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
        • • Social Networks Koster, Raph
          • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
            • • Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
              • Social Networks Jeff Cole
              • • Social Networks Koster, Raph
                • • Social Networks Jeff Cole
                • Social Networks Matthew Dobervich
                • • Social Networks Jeff Cole
                • Social Networks Dave Rickey
        • Social Networks Jeff Cole
      • Social Networks Sasha Hart
  • Social Networks Nicolai Hansen
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
  • Social Networks Paul E. Schwanz, II
  • • Social Networks Sasha Hart
    • • Social Networks paul.schwanz@sun.com
      • • Social Networks Sasha Hart
      • Social Networks Matt Mihaly
    • Social Networks John Buehler
• Advertising Thread Edward Glowacki
• • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
• Histories and Legends paul.schwanz@sun.com
• • Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
  • • Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
    • Histories and Legends Matt Mihaly
    • • Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
    • Histories and Legends Val Trullinger
  • Histories and Legends apollyon
  • • Histories and Legends Matthew Dobervich
    • • Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
      • Histories and Legends Edward Glowacki
      • • Histories and Legends Sasha Hart
• Advertising Thread Richard A. Bartle
• Where do you get you numbers? NetEngels@aol.com
• • Where do you get you numbers? Dave Rickey
• Mud Advertising Matt Mihaly
• • Mud Advertising Christopher Allen
  • • Mud Advertising Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• Online World Timeline slashdotted Koster, Raph
• • Online World Timeline slashdotted Lars Duening
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Dave Rickey
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Ted L. Chen
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Russ Whiteman
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Jon A. Lambert
• TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
• • TECH: Trusting Network Clients "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jeremy Noetzelman
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
    • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Freeman, Jeff
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Vincent Archer
        • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Brack, J. Allen
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Kwon J. Ekstrom
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients brian hook
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
        • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
        • TECH: Trusting Network Clients apollyon
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Travis Nixon
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
          • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Paul Schwanz
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Justin Quimby
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Steve Dieter
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jesus Lopez
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Tess Snider
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christohe Badoit
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Bruce Mitchener
    • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Edward Glowacki
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients James Ross Nicoll
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Russ Whiteman
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Ian Macintosh
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients damon baker
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Benjamin Tolputt
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients David H. Loeser Jr.
• Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
• • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
  • • Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
    • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
    • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
    • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
      • • Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
        • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
          • • Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
            • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
              • • Natural Selection and Communities Crosbie Fitch
        • Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
        • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
          • • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
            • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
        • Natural Selection and Communities Dave Trump
        • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
        • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
          • • Natural Selection and Communities Damion Schubert
      • Natural Selection and Communities Ron Gabbard
  • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
  • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
    • • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
      • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
        • • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
  • Natural Selection and Communities David Kennerly
  • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
    • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
• Peer-to-peer hosting of player created content in persistant worlds. Matthew Dobervich
• Sales data Richard A. Bartle
• • Sales data Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • • Sales data Luca Girardo
  • Sales data Richard A. Bartle
  • • Sales data Rayzam
  • Sales data Robert A. Rice, Jr.
• Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
• • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
  • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
    • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
      • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
        • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
          • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
        • Cans of Achievements and Quests Justin Quimby
        • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
      • Cans of Achievements and Quests Paul Schwanz
      • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
        • • Cans of Achievements and Quests damon baker
          • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
            • Cans of Achievements and Quests Michael Tresca
  • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
• Muds and High School Textbooks Jon A. Lambert
• Unruly Players (fwd) J C Lawrence