August 2002

• TECH: Path MTU Discovery Eli Stevens
• Matt's java problems.... Adam
• Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
• • Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
  • Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Non-traditional monsters? Jack Britt
    • • Non-traditional monsters? Kwon Ekstrom
      • Non-traditional monsters? eric
      • • Non-traditional monsters? Brandon J. Van Every
      • Non-traditional monsters? Damion Schubert
  • Non-traditional monsters? Bruce Mitchener
  • Non-traditional monsters? Edward Glowacki
  • Non-traditional monsters? szii@sziisoft.com
  • Non-traditional monsters? Nathan F. Yospe
• OT: Gen Con? Michael Tresca
• Unique items vs. item references Brian Hook
• • Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
  • • Unique items vs. item references shren
    • • Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
      • • Unique items vs. item references lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
        • Unique items vs. item references Bruce Mitchener
        • • Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
      • Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
      • • Unique items vs. item references shren
        • • Unique items vs. item references Brandon J. Van Every
          • Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
          • • Unique items vs. item references Freeman, Jeff
            • Unique items vs. item references Harrok
            • Unique items vs. item references Zach Collins {Siege}
            • • Unique items vs. item references Rayzam
          • Unique items vs. item references fred@clift.org
      • Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
    • Unique items vs. item references Koster, Raph
    • Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
    • • Unique items vs. item references Vincent Archer
      • • Unique items vs. item references Dave Rickey
  • Unique items vs. item references Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
  • Unique items vs. item references Damion Schubert
  • Unique items vs. item references Smith, David {Lynchburg}
  • • Unique items vs. item references Sean Kelly
• Character skill amplifying player skill Brian Hook
• • Character skill amplifying player skill Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • Character skill amplifying player skill Ling Lo
• narrative Bruce Mitchener
• • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
  • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
    • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
      • • narrative John Buehler
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
        • narrative Jeff Lindsey
        • narrative Bruce Mitchener
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
          • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
          • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
        • narrative Nathan F. Yospe
      • narrative Joe Andrieu
      • • narrative Dave Rickey
        • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
          • • narrative Dave Rickey
            • narrative John Robert Arras
            • • narrative Dave Rickey
              • • narrative Jeremy Noetzelman
                • • narrative dmiles@users.sourceforge.net
                • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                • • narrative Dave Rickey
          • narrative Joe Andrieu
        • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
        • • narrative Brad Roberts
          • • narrative Matt Mihaly
            • • narrative dmiles@users.sourceforge.net
              • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • • narrative Vincent Archer
                  • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                    • • narrative Vincent Archer
                    • narrative Damion Schubert
                • narrative Ron Gabbard
                • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                  • narrative Matt Mihaly
        • narrative John Robert Arras
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
          • • narrative John Robert Arras
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
  • narrative Robert Zubek
  • • narrative Bruce Mitchener
    • • narrative Robert Zubek
      • narrative Ted L. Chen
    • narrative dmiles@users.sourceforge.net
  • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
  • • narrative Joe Andrieu
      Bradon wrote:
      
      > Ok Bruce, I just spent 2 hours perusing the papers you cited and
      > writing this e-mail. I think you could have saved me the effort
      > by simply stating "Yes, all these stories suck," but maybe your
      > paradigm and focus precluded that. Do you know of any writing
      > tools along these lines that have acceptable writing of
      > non-trivial length associated with them? Otherwise, I don't see
      > the point of discussing any of this stuff from the standpoint of
      > "What does a writer need?" Frankly, a writer doesn't need any of
      > it!
      
      Brandon, I think you are completely missing the point. That may be
      just due to the semantics of the topic, so let me chime in with the
      others and suggest a redefinition.
      
      I am not talking about written stories, whether by computer or
      otherwise. I don't think such a conversation would have much
      traction here on MUD-DEV.
      
      What I'm talking about is interactive stories or interactive cinema
      as we at Realtime Drama like to call it: dynamic narratives.
      
      The end goal is not a novel-length Homeric epic. The goal is a
      virtual environment where the player's actions are effectively
      unrestricted yet impact the plot of an unfolding dramatic arc in
      real and meaningful ways. I want the player to do whatever he wants
      and still receive a Hollywood-style story experience(tm).
      
      If fictional examples will work better for you, check out the Star
      Trek: The Next Generation episode where Data asks the holodeck for a
      Sherlock-Holmesian story where Moriarity is capable of defeating
      data. The results is a fabulously structured interactive narrative
      where everyone is doing what comes naturally and the story arc is
      synthesized in result.
      
      Or read _Diamond Age_ by Neil Stephenson (author of _Snowcrash_),
      the interactive children's primer in that novel is a wonderful
      example of how interactive stories can be realized.
      
      My point is, it aint about the text. It's about the experience.
      
      > For all you folks that want automated or semi-automated user
      > engagement: what's so hard about having your writing guy sit down
      > and spit out a pile of plot summaries? Then go implement 'em,
      > leveraging game objects you've already built. Why do engineers
      > put so much energy into trying to avoid the writing?
      
      Cost. Plain and simple. Writers don't scale well, while engines that
      multiply writers' talents across a wide variety of situations still
      maintaining the core of the story archetype, do. Instead of
      imagining the writer writing every word (especially since words are
      not the point), imagine writers defining story archetypes with meta
      definitions of settings, themes, and characters. Such archetypes can
      be interpreted in realtime to generate thousands of story
      experiences for every one story the author defines.
      
      > On this mailing list, what problem are you guys trying to solve?
      > Do you care about writing quality, or writing quantity? Given
      > that so many people will defend a pile of crap story like
      > Morrowind's, I don't see how the latter can even be an issue. You
      > could write from the entrails of toilet paper, people would still
      > buy it!
      
      I'm not trying to write anything. As Dave Rickey said, we are trying
      to craft adventures and entertaining experiences. I personally
      believe that the classic Aristotleian dramatic arc is one of the
      best techniques known to man for creating emotional engagement in a
      crafted medium. I'm working to realize the first-person experience
      of being the protagonist in such a dramatic arc, with all the
      freedom and agency to impact the story and the world around me.
      
      > An output sample:
      
      > [sic] "once upon a time there lived a dog. one day it happened
      > that farmer evicted cat. when this happened, dog felt pity for
      > the cat. in response, dog sneaked food to the cat. farmer
      > punished dog."
      
      > This may represent a great achievement for narrative AI, but as
      > writing, it sucks!
      
      It's not about the words, Brandon. Your calling as a writer is
      secure. It's about finding ways where the computer can follow the
      essence of a story and keep on top of it despite the unpredictable
      actions of the players.
      
      Of course, much of what is going into research will explore areas
      different that my own ideas. Great. They'll discover stuff I
      wouldn't have thought of. And much of their early work will be less
      than stellar. Pong wasn't so amazing either.
      
      > I think most of these works lack character buy-in. Why should we
      > care about these characters? I find I only care about the
      > characters when I've heard the 2nd half of the story. That's
      > interest in the puzzle of their interactions, not the characters
      > themselves. Maybe the actors are capable of being much more
      > engaging as they tell the stories on video. But that's acting,
      > not writing. I think these writers present choppy experiences
      > from moment to moment, and after a few paragraphs of that, I start
      > to ask why I should care.
      
      Ah! This is a great comment. You've identified one of the core
      barriers to implementing good interactive
      cinema/narrative/whatever. It is hard to develop empathy in this
      medium, where you have no protagonist whose motivations and flaws
      are under your control. And pacing the experiences so they are not
      "choppy" as you say is a profound UI problem as well as a question
      of narrative flow. How do you seemlessly move from one "scene" to
      another when the player controls their own avatar?
      
      These are current research questions in the narrative intelligence
      community that started this thread. People have realized the
      shortcomings of current efforts and are working to find solutions.
      
      
      There is a saying in the research community: if research worked the
      first time, they would call it "search".
      
      If you want to see interesting solutions to dramatic engagement in
      MUDs, it would serve you well to be more encouraging without
      lowering your standards. The goal is finely crafted cinematic
      experiences; in the meantime, we have to make progress as we can.
      
      In a separate email you commented on writers and Crawford's
      Erasmatron. I think you are looking at this from the wrong
      perspective. If you think every writer out there is going to be able
      to transform their focus on text generation into interaction design,
      you're crazy. Generally speaking, most writers are just as bad as
      game designers as game designers are bad at writing. What we are
      talking about requires a synthesis of the two skills, as well as the
      development of the tools that will enable the realization of a
      creator's artistic expression. To oversimplify, writers need pen &
      paper, actors need a stage, directors need a camera... what do the
      artists in this new medium need?
      
      Writers and writing is important to this medium, but they are not
      the end-all-be-all, anymore than the writer is the most critical
      contributor to a film. And yet, some of us know how much we need
      good writers; the role they play is far more important than most
      game designers give them the credit or freedom for.
      
      -j
      
      --
      Joe Andrieu
      Realtime Drama
      joe@andrieu.net
    • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
      • • narrative Joe Andrieu
        • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
          • • narrative Freeman, Jeff
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • narrative John Buehler
              • narrative Vincent Archer
              • narrative Paul E. Schwanz, II
            • narrative Amanda Walker
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Jeremy Noetzelman
                • narrative Amanda Walker
                • narrative Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
                • narrative Zach Collins {Siege}
                • narrative Dave Rickey
              • narrative Ron Gabbard
              • • narrative Amanda Walker
                • • narrative Sasha Hart
            • narrative Christopher Kohnert
            • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
              • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
                  • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                    • narrative Damion Schubert
                    • • narrative Matt Mihaly
                • narrative Zach Collins {Siege}
          • narrative Bruce Mitchener
          • • narrative Brandon J. Van Every
            • narrative Joe Andrieu
    • narrative Nathan F. Yospe
  • narrative Sasha Hart
  • narrative Benjamin Tolputt
• [Fwd: [Algorithms] ANNOUNCE: updated Chunked LOD demo] Bruce Mitchener
• (no subject) Jack Britt
• • (no subject) Brandon J. Van Every
  • • (no subject) Jack Britt
    • • (no subject) Jeff Lindsey
      • (no subject) Karl Bastiman
    • (no subject) Zach Collins {Siege}
• Advertising Thread Rayzam
• • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
    • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
    • Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
    • • Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
      • • Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
        • • Advertising Thread Kristen Koster
    • Advertising Thread Rayzam
    • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
      • • Advertising Thread Shannon Appelcline
        • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
        • Advertising Thread Rayzam
        • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
        • • Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
          • • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
            • • Advertising Thread Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
            • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
            • • Advertising Thread Jeremy Noetzelman
              • Advertising Thread Amanda Walker
              • • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
            • Advertising Thread Jeremy Gaffney
        • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
        • • Advertising Thread Michael Tresca
  • Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
  • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
• skills (was (no subject)) Travis Casey
• The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Derek Licciardi
• • The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Crosbie Fitch
  • The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Valerio Santinelli
  • The total DBMS approach (was: Unique items vs. item references) Russ Whiteman
• Socket Code Stephen Miller
• • Socket Code Smith, David {Lynchburg}
  • Socket Code Blane Bramble
• Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
• • Origins of "carebear" Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • • Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
  • Origins of "carebear" Madrona Tree
  • • Origins of "carebear" Calandryll
    • Origins of "carebear" Dave Trump
  • Origins of "carebear" Koster, Raph
• The total DBMS approach Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
• • The total DBMS approach Derek Licciardi
  • • The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
    • • The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
      • • The total DBMS approach Sean Kelly
        • The total DBMS approach Hanz, Rob
        • The total DBMS approach Elia Mörling
  • The total DBMS approach Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • • The total DBMS approach Ian Macintosh
• Otherland Richard A. Bartle
• • Otherland shren
  • • Otherland Richard A. Bartle
    • • Otherland shren
  • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • • Otherland Richard A. Bartle
    • • Otherland Steve {Bloo} Daniels
  • Otherland Dan Homerick
• Efficiency in providing entertainment John Buehler
• Noncombat(and combat) skills WAS: (no subject) "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
• Mountaineering and Athletics Brandon J. Van Every
• • Mountaineering and Athletics Damion Schubert
  • • Mountaineering and Athletics John Buehler
    • • Mountaineering and Athletics Poe, Lawrence
  • Mountaineering and Athletics Vincent Archer
• Noncombat(and combat) skills Jo Dillon
• • Noncombat(and combat) skills "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
• They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Jack Britt
• • They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Brandon J. Van Every
  • They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Artovil
  • They fight! And bite! They fight and bite and fight! Fight fight fight! Bite bite bite! Zach Collins {Siege}
• What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Phillip Lenhardt
• • What Ever Happened to Imaginary Realities? Richard A. Bartle
• Butterfly.net Matt Mihaly
• • Butterfly.net Freeman, Jeff
  • • Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
  • Butterfly.net Luca Girardo
• Mythology Articles Shannon Appelcline
• Item handling (was: Advertising Thread) Jeff Lindsey
• Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
• • Advertising Thread Brandon J. Van Every
  • • Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
    • • Advertising Thread Marc Bowden
      • • Advertising Thread Damion Schubert
      • Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
  • Advertising Thread Russ Whiteman
  • • Advertising Thread Brad McQuaid
    • • Advertising Thread Dave Rickey
      • • Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
        • • Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
          • • Advertising Thread Marc LaFleur
            • • Advertising Thread Koster, Raph
        • Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
        • • Advertising Thread Zach Collins {Siege}
          • • Advertising Thread Ron Gabbard
  • Advertising Thread Richard Aihoshi aka Jonric
• Social Networks Dave Rickey
• • Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
    • • Social Networks Brian 'Psychochild' Green
      • Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
      • • Social Networks Harrok
        • • Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
          • Social Networks Sage
          • • Social Networks Damion Schubert
          • Social Networks Matt Mihaly
          • • Social Networks Harrok
            • • Social Networks Matt Mihaly
        • Social Networks Tess Snider
        • • Social Networks Paul Schwanz
          • • Social Networks Bruce Mitchener
            • • Social Networks Paul Schwanz
              • • Social Networks Michael Tresca
                • Social Networks Marian Griffith
                • • Social Networks Zach Collins {Siege}
  • Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
  • Social Networks Koster, Raph
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
  • Social Networks Sasha Hart
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
    • • Social Networks Koster, Raph
      • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
        • • Social Networks Koster, Raph
          • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
            • • Social Networks Freeman, Jeff
              • Social Networks Jeff Cole
              • • Social Networks Koster, Raph
                • • Social Networks Jeff Cole
                • Social Networks Matthew Dobervich
                • • Social Networks Jeff Cole
                • Social Networks Dave Rickey
        • Social Networks Jeff Cole
      • Social Networks Sasha Hart
  • Social Networks Nicolai Hansen
  • • Social Networks Dave Rickey
  • Social Networks Paul E. Schwanz, II
  • • Social Networks Sasha Hart
    • • Social Networks paul.schwanz@sun.com
      • • Social Networks Sasha Hart
      • Social Networks Matt Mihaly
    • Social Networks John Buehler
• Advertising Thread Edward Glowacki
• • Advertising Thread Matt Mihaly
• Histories and Legends paul.schwanz@sun.com
• • Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
  • • Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
    • Histories and Legends Matt Mihaly
    • • Histories and Legends Paul Schwanz
    • Histories and Legends Val Trullinger
  • Histories and Legends apollyon
  • • Histories and Legends Matthew Dobervich
    • • Histories and Legends Koster, Raph
      • Histories and Legends Edward Glowacki
      • • Histories and Legends Sasha Hart
• Advertising Thread Richard A. Bartle
• Where do you get you numbers? NetEngels@aol.com
• • Where do you get you numbers? Dave Rickey
• Mud Advertising Matt Mihaly
• • Mud Advertising Christopher Allen
  • • Mud Advertising Brian 'Psychochild' Green
• Online World Timeline slashdotted Koster, Raph
• • Online World Timeline slashdotted Lars Duening
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Dave Rickey
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Ted L. Chen
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Russ Whiteman
  • Online World Timeline slashdotted Jon A. Lambert
• TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
• • TECH: Trusting Network Clients "Arnau Rossell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?= Castell=?US-ASCII?Q?=F3?="< arocas@alumni.uv.es>
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jeremy Noetzelman
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
    • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Freeman, Jeff
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Vincent Archer
        • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Brack, J. Allen
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Kwon J. Ekstrom
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients brian hook
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
        • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sasha Hart
        • TECH: Trusting Network Clients apollyon
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Travis Nixon
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Koster, Raph
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Sean Kelly
          • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Paul Schwanz
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Justin Quimby
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Steve Dieter
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Jesus Lopez
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Nicolai Hansen
      • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Tess Snider
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Crosbie Fitch
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christohe Badoit
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Bruce Mitchener
    • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
      • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Fox McCloud
        • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Christophe Badoit
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Edward Glowacki
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients James Ross Nicoll
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Phillip Lenhardt
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Russ Whiteman
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Ian Macintosh
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients damon baker
  • • TECH: Trusting Network Clients Benjamin Tolputt
  • TECH: Trusting Network Clients David H. Loeser Jr.
• Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
• • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
  • • Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
    • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
    • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
    • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
      • • Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
        • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
          • • Natural Selection and Communities Dave Rickey
            • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
              • • Natural Selection and Communities Crosbie Fitch
        • Natural Selection and Communities Koster, Raph
        • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
          • • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
            • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
        • Natural Selection and Communities Dave Trump
        • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
        • • Natural Selection and Communities John Buehler
          • • Natural Selection and Communities Damion Schubert
      • Natural Selection and Communities Ron Gabbard
  • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
  • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
    • • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
      • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
        • • Natural Selection and Communities Matt Mihaly
  • Natural Selection and Communities David Kennerly
  • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
    • • Natural Selection and Communities Paul Schwanz
• Peer-to-peer hosting of player created content in persistant worlds. Matthew Dobervich
• Sales data Richard A. Bartle
• • Sales data Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
  • • Sales data Luca Girardo
  • Sales data Richard A. Bartle
  • • Sales data Rayzam
  • Sales data Robert A. Rice, Jr.
• Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
• • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
  • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
    • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
      • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
        • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sean Kelly
          • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Sasha Hart
        • Cans of Achievements and Quests Justin Quimby
        • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
      • Cans of Achievements and Quests Paul Schwanz
      • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
        • • Cans of Achievements and Quests damon baker
          • • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
            • Cans of Achievements and Quests Michael Tresca
  • Cans of Achievements and Quests Rayzam
• Muds and High School Textbooks Jon A. Lambert
• Unruly Players (fwd) J C Lawrence