July 2002
- It's About Time Dep... Food Anderson, David
- Player count threshholds (was: Text Muds vs Graphical Muds) Christopher Allen
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Sasha Hart
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Valerio Santinelli
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Dave Trump
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Valerio Santinelli
- The importance of graphics Zach Collins {Siege}
- The importance of graphics brian hook
- The importance of graphics Ted L. Chen
- The importance of graphics eric
- The importance of graphics Edward Glowacki
- The importance of graphics Matthew D. Fuller
- The importance of graphics Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The importance of graphics Damion Schubert
- The importance of graphics Kwon Ekstrom
- The importance of graphics jolon@kungfudesign.com
- The importance of graphics Matt Mihaly
- The importance of graphics Marc Bowden
- The importance of graphics Koster, Raph
- The importance of graphics VdA
- The importance of graphics Marc Bowden
- The importance of graphics jolon@kungfudesign.com
- The importance of graphics caduvall@glue.umd.edu
- The importance of graphics Matt Mihaly
- The importance of graphics Michael R. Estepp
- Completed Article Series at Skotos Shannon Appelcline
- NWN upping the ante? Or is that too much to ask? Azeraab
- NWN upping the ante? Or is that too much to ask? Matt Chatterley
- Crafting/Creation systems Paul Boyle
- Crafting/Creation systems eric
- Crafting/Creation systems cooper
- Crafting/Creation systems cheesecrow@mail.ru
- Crafting/Creation systems Matt Mihaly
- Crafting/Creation systems Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
- Crafting/Creation systems Peter Tyson
- Crafting/Creation systems Paul Boyle
- Crafting/Creation systems lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems shren
- Crafting/Creation systems Jeff Lindsey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Vincent Archer
- Crafting/Creation systems Matt Mihaly
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Brandon J. Van Every
- Crafting/Creation systems amanda@alfar.com
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Damion Schubert
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
Ron Gabbard writes:
> From: "John Buehler" <johnbue@msn.com>
>> Damion Schubert writes:
>>> From John Buehler:
>>>> I have an aversion to long hours of boredom punctuated by
>>>> moments of entertainment.
> You just captured the essence of baseball, deer hunting, fishing,
> and NASCAR in a one sentence... yet each of these activities has
> millions and tens of millions of fans. Broadening the type of
> activities is all about broadening the appeal of the game to make
> room for players who aren't high 'twitch factor' or even
> combat-oriented.
None of those activities are long hours of boredom punctuated by
moments of entertainment. They are long periods of one type of
entertainment punctuated by moments of another type of
entertainment. Current games truly do consist of lots of boredom,
primarily due to the lack of variation in the experiences.
>>>> My most fundamental tenet to crafting is that the boring part
>>>> has to be entertaining. If it can't be done, then don't have
>>>> players do that part. Have NPCs do it and have the players
>>>> manage them. I could easily imagine that harvesting could be
>>>> made entertaining, at least for a while, but it's not by
>>>> hearing the same chopping and cutting sounds and seeing the
>>>> same animation on the exact same tree graphic over and over
>>>> again. Every activity in a game that a player is invited to
>>>> engage in must be more entertaining than current combat
>>>> systems. And that includes combat and forestry.
> This is where the Falacy of Fun enters in...
> A single-player game is considered pretty good if it has what? 30
> to 70 hours of solid, fun game play? MMPs/MUDs measure played
> time in DAYS. It's not unusual to have MMP/MUD players with 30 to
> 70 (some even higher) played days on a character. Even the
> 'casual' player that invests 4 hours per week in a game will
> accumulate over 200 hours played in a year. Relying on processes
> and mechanisms for 'fun' will fail in online games because no
> mechanism designed by God nor man will still be 'fun' after 200,
> 700, or 1,600+ hours of play. I'm not saying that the game won't
> still be fun, just that the novelty and fascination with the
> mechanics will be gone... like the initial 'oooooooh' factor of
> new, fancy graphics. I don't disagree with you that crafting
> systems could be more engaging. I just wouldn't remove integral
> components of a balanced economy because the mechanism is
> perceived to be boring by some people as the 'fun' from boring
> mechanics and the 'fun' from engaging mechanics will both be the
> same in the long run... pretty much zero. It's the Law of
> Diminishing Marginal Utility again and isn't the goal to acquire
> and retain long-term subscribers?
Hmmm. Software engineering has kept me 'entertained' for 20 years.
Dancing kept me entertained for 5 years. I still play cards and
board games with friends. I've helped any number of friends with
moving, painting, gardening, etc, etc. As have we all. Yet these
things remain entertaining. Why? For me, it's because they permit
socialization.
The idea that whacking on a chunk of metal in order to make a sword
is supposed to be great fun is not what I was getting at. But
whacking on that chunk of metal should be engaging, all the while
knowing that each whack on the iron relates to some future social
interaction. I can talk to other smiths about what I did. I can
point out flaws and finery of the sword to customers. I can sell
the sword at a low price as a 'second' of my work. But none of that
is possible if every sword is identical and every sword was created
in exactly the same way. There must be entertainment inherent in
the crafting else there is no socialization value to any given
sword.
This is why I harp on the idea of voice communication between
players. To permit greater socialization. This is why I harp on
complexity of game systems. Linearity limits the fodder of
socialization that these games can provide. So the actual crafting
of a sword must be entertaining. It must be variable. It must be
engaging. I don't really know a word for what I'm after, I guess.
> So, after 500+ hours of using the mechanics and processes, there
> better be some reason to make another 'sword' outside of transient
> 'fun' because the 'fun' of the process is long gone.
I agree with the general sentiment here, but the caveat remains that
fun remains in the process because of things that get implicitly
tied to the process. I'm hammering out a shorter sword because of a
specific reason. That makes it entertaining.
>>> Um, why? I don't think at all that the fun of crafting comes
>>> from the complexity of the interface of crafting. The fun of
>>> crafting is more externally-driven.
>> I'm sure that's the case for you and for many who get into
>> crafting. The current player base is strongly
>> achievement-oriented. I'm not as achievement-oriented, so I
>> represent those who are more interested in the crafting process
>> itself. I'm also interested in the achievement side of things,
>> but not as much as you are.
> The difference isn't between achievement versus non-achievement.
> It's self-focused versus society focused. What you are describing
> is an 'artisan' more than a 'tradesperson'. An artisan is more
> focused on the creation and innovation process and isn't worried
> about the marketability of their output. They create items for
> the fun of it and don't care what society thinks of their work.
Hmmm. Well, my points above would suggest otherwise. Perhaps this
is all just miscommunication on my part.
> What I am shooting for is a trade skill system that is profitable
> for the tradespeople as well as appealing to a broad range of
> personalities. Some people enjoy the exploring, inventing, and
> creating process like John described. Some people don't care too
> much for high involvement in creation of the items but enjoy the
> selling process and visa versa. Some people just want a steady
> income so they can save up and buy a house or open a store. Some
> players don't want to do trade skills at all, others want to be
> 100% tradespeople, while many are somewhere in between. There is
> room for all types of personalities and ambitions in an efficient
> economy and trade skill system as long as trade skills are
> designed as alternative vocations to killing 'n looting and not
> money sinks.
I agree with all of this. Removing the attitude of 'crafting as a
money sink' would be a great first step.
Note that I'm not really interested in the exploration, invention
and creation process as you seem to think I am. I want that process
to be entertaining if some player is going to do it. And making it
entertaining doesn't mean that it is a great single-player game, but
rather it remains a multiplayer form of entertainment, through
socialization. Smiths won't talk to each other about what they did
if there isn't any content to the crafting. Just as warriors don't
talk to each other about tactics or techniques of combat because
there isn't much content there. Instead, players talk about class
balance, pretty art and the occasional flub by a player that
produced an atypical (and usually disastrous) result.
JB
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s Ted L. Chen
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Vincent Archer
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Zach Collins {Siege}
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s Travis Casey
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Amanda Walker
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s Amanda Walker
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Madrona Tree
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Paul Boyle
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Michael Tresca
- Mass customization in MM***s Brandon J. Van Every
- Mass customization in MM***s P.David
- NLP tools? Robert Zubek
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Edward Glowacki
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Koster, Raph
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Jeff Lindsey
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Damion Schubert
- Game Convention Development Survey Casbaria
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Koster, Raph
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Derek Licciardi
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? shren
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Matt Mihaly
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Marian Griffith
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immature? Paul Schwanz
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Marc LaFleur
- Salon article: "Showdown in cyberspace: Star Wars vs. The Sims" Robert Zubek
- Are gratifiction-based (online) societies doomed to being immature? Jay C.
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Vladimir Cole
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK eric
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Boyle
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Vincent Archer
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK Koster, Raph
- A Question on PvP and PK Derek Licciardi
- A Question on PvP and PK Lars Duening
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK shren
- A Question on PvP and PK Dave Rickey
- A Question on PvP and PK Daniel James
- A Question on PvP and PK Sean Kelly
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Sean Kelly
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK Lars Duening
- A Question on PvP and PK Koster, Raph
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Zach Collins {Siege}
- A Question on PvP and PK Kwon Ekstrom
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK John Buehler
- A Question on PvP and PK Eli Stevens
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Schwanz
- A Question on PvP and PK Amanda Walker
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Amanda Walker
- A Question on PvP and PK Sasha Hart
- A Question on PvP and PK apollyon .
- A Question on PvP and PK Sasha Hart
- A Question on PvP and PK ghovs
- A Question on PvP and PK Dave Trump
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Boyle
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK Moonvine
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s Yannick.Jean@csst.qc.ca
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s John Buehler
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Jeff Lindsey
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s John Buehler
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s Damion Schubert
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Jeff Lindsey
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) shren
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) shren
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Acius
- Gamasutra plans to feature MMOGs Lars Duening
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Marian Griffith
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Greg Titus
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Sean Kelly
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Greg Titus
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) shren
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Dave Shepherd
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) John Buehler
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Travis Casey
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Jessica Mulligan
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Damion Schubert
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Koster, Raph
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Christopher Allen
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) John Bertoglio
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Adam
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Sie Ming
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Jeff Cole
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Damion Schubert
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposit ion? Anderson, David
- Gratification-based MUDs luke@rocketship.com
- Rif. : Mass customization in MM*** s Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- EQ in mainstream news again... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: Britt A. Green
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Sean Kelly
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Anderson, David
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) John Buehler
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Sie Ming
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Derek Licciardi
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Damion Schubert
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Sara Jensen
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Matt Mihaly
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Sasha Hart
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Valerio Santinelli
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Zach Collins {Siege}
- java clients Kwon Ekstrom
- java clients Daniel James
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Colin Coghill
- java clients Brandon J. Van Every
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Brandon J. Van Every
- java clients Philippe Lalande
- java clients justice@softhome.net
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients David Love
- java clients Jon A. Lambert
- java clients fred@clift.org
- java clients Lars Duening
- java clients Jon A. Lambert
- java clients justice@softhome.net
- java clients David Love
- java clients Travis Casey
- java clients bruce@cubik.org
- java clients Fred Clift
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Karl Bastiman
- java clients David Yazel
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients ceo
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients ceo
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients Daniel James
- java clients ceo
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients ceo
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jack Britt
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Ammon Lauritzen
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sasha Hart
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Trickey, Rob
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Anderson, David
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Zach Collins {Siege}
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? shren
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Mathieu Castelli
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Peter Harkins
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jack Britt
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sasha Hart
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jo Dillon
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Bruce Mitchener
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sie Ming
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Michelle Elbert
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sean Kelly
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Christopher Allen
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sage
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Michael Tresca
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Brandon J. Van Every
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Frank Crowell
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Sasha Hart
- Creative guy seeking a MUD c_andreev@fmi.uni-sofia.bg
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Koster, Raph
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling Tools Ron Gabbard
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling Tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Miroslav Silovic
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) Travis Casey
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Lars Duening
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Marc Bowden
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Valerio Santinelli
- A question of PvP and PK Adam
- web-based MUD editing tools? Brandon J. Van Every
- web-based MUD editing tools? Kwon Ekstrom
- web-based MUD editing tools? Christopher Allen
- web-based MUD editing tools? Sanvean
- web-based MUD editing tools? John Bertoglio
- web-based MUD editing tools? zifnab@islandsofmyth.org
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) Sean Kelly
- ADMIN: List configuration changes J C Lawrence
- Hangul (was Ref. : Mass customization in MM***s) Jake Song
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) David Kennerly
- Phonetic and Ideographic languages (was Hangul) Nathan F. Yospe
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Lars Duening
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Malcolm Tester
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- current portable lpmud code libraries? Brandon J. Van Every
- current portable lpmud code libraries? David Bennett