July 2002
- It's About Time Dep... Food Anderson, David
- Player count threshholds (was: Text Muds vs Graphical Muds) Christopher Allen
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Sasha Hart
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Valerio Santinelli
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Dave Trump
- Neverwinter Nights (Was: The Future of MMOGs... what's next?) Valerio Santinelli
- The importance of graphics Zach Collins {Siege}
- The importance of graphics brian hook
- The importance of graphics Ted L. Chen
- The importance of graphics eric
- The importance of graphics Edward Glowacki
- The importance of graphics Matthew D. Fuller
- The importance of graphics Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- The importance of graphics Damion Schubert
- The importance of graphics Kwon Ekstrom
- The importance of graphics jolon@kungfudesign.com
- The importance of graphics Matt Mihaly
- The importance of graphics Marc Bowden
- The importance of graphics Koster, Raph
- The importance of graphics VdA
- The importance of graphics Marc Bowden
- The importance of graphics jolon@kungfudesign.com
- The importance of graphics caduvall@glue.umd.edu
- The importance of graphics Matt Mihaly
- The importance of graphics Michael R. Estepp
- Completed Article Series at Skotos Shannon Appelcline
- NWN upping the ante? Or is that too much to ask? Azeraab
- NWN upping the ante? Or is that too much to ask? Matt Chatterley
- Crafting/Creation systems Paul Boyle
- Crafting/Creation systems eric
- Crafting/Creation systems cooper
- Crafting/Creation systems cheesecrow@mail.ru
- Crafting/Creation systems Matt Mihaly
- Crafting/Creation systems Aaron "the mad man" Weeks
- Crafting/Creation systems Peter Tyson
- Crafting/Creation systems Paul Boyle
- Crafting/Creation systems lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems shren
- Crafting/Creation systems Jeff Lindsey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
From: "Dave Rickey" <daver@mythicentertainment.com>
> From: "Ron Gabbard" <rgabbard@swbell.net>
>> Thus, to have an inflation-proof, balanced economy you need:
>> 1a. A closed market with a fixed money supply, or 1b. An open
>> economy with no hard-coded prices or wages and a system by which
>> prices can adjust to inflation. 2. A system by which the supply
>> of goods is able to equal the demand for those goods.
>> If a game designer can create a system where the available supply
>> of raw materials equals the player-driven demand for raw
>> materials without the players providing the supply and where the
>> price for those raw materials can adjust to inflation and are
>> market-driven, more power to them.
> In DAoC, there's an interesting dynamic that has set in now that
> players have realized that even without special magical bonuses, a
> good player-crafted weapon is significantly superior to a loot
> drop weapon. In DAoC, quality of output is random in a range from
> 94-100 (the best non "Dragon-grade" loot is 93%), with equal
> chances of 94-99 and one chance in 71 of a 100% quality item (aka
> "masterpiece"). Players being the way they are, and the system
> working the way it does, a 97% weapon is considered barely
> acceptable, a 98% workable, a 99% preferrable, and you really want
> a 100% masterpiece.
<snip description>
bah! I harassed Iain to get these numbers from Spyke for a long
time! I loved the concepts behind the DAoC crafting scheme (and
even got my Armsman up to 800+ in armorcrafting). I personally felt
that crafting was just another money and time sink both in the
short-term and the long-term... so I stopped rather than push to
1000+. Yes, it's really time consuming and expensive to ramp up a
trade skill to 'Master+' level... but, that's not the problem.
Let's say the total population on the server is 2,500. Now, assume
that I play in a larger realm on that server that has a population
of 1,000. (Some realms have significantly fewer players.) Within my
realm, people are equally distributed amongst casters, rogues, and
melees so that there are 333 of each. Thus, the total market for
metal weapons is 333 as the other 667 use bows or staves.
Now, lets assume for reference purposes a level distribution of 15%
levels 1-10/15% levels 11 - 20/30% levels 21 - 30/20% levels
31-40/20% levels 41 - 50. That means that there are 66 players in
my realm that would use the high-end gear made by Grandmaster
weaponsmithers (1000+).
Next, take decay rate into consideration. I only had one weapon
decay on me to the point where it needed replacing during my 44
levels so I don't have a good sample size to determine the actual
decay rate. But, for illustration purposes, let's say a weapon
lasts 10 days. Thus, on any given night there are an average of 7
people needing a new high-end weapon in my realm.
Now, divide 7 by the total number of Grandmaster crafters. Let's
just say there are 2. (I hate prime numbers.) So, there is a
potential market of 3 to 4 weapons for each weaponsmith on any given
night. But, will these people buy crafted weapons?
The price of the weapon cannot exceed the value of the difference in
effectiveness between the readily-available mob-dropped weapon
(which is free) and the crafted weapon. (Unless, as you later point
out, it's either spend the money on the crafted item or it's
worthless.) In addition, the cost in time of finding a crafter,
ordering the weapon, and traveling to pick it up (transaction costs)
has to be added to the price. Example: If I have multiple 14
effective-dps weapons sitting in the bank from various mobs and a
spare in my pack, the price for the crafted 16.2 weapon cannot
exceed the perceived value of an additional 2.2 dps + transaction
costs.
The problem is that by fixing the ore costs, the weaponcrafter has a
minimum that they can charge to the customer and still be
profitable. Compound that by the fact that the ores for the high
end weapons are only obtainable in the Relic Keeps (where there
weren't forges when last I played) and the travel time required by
the crafter boosts that cost up as well. (Whether the crafter gets
paid for that time is a different issue.) In DAoC, if the players
mined the raw materials for crafted goods, the player-driven market
price for ores, leathers, and woods would drop
dramatically... particularly at the higher-end where there is little
demand. This would allow crafters to price their goods in such a
way that they are competitive with mob-dropped loot and increase
their business.
The bottom line is that there just isn't enough business to support
a crafter role given the current decay rate and cost structure that
would allow them to recoup their investment and on-going costs in
their craft. The option is always open to increase the decay rate
and reduce the drop rate of mob loot. However, crafter-made weapons
are so expensive that players would eventually have to increase
their PvE mob-killing to earn loot and cut back on their RvR... even
the level 50's who no longer get any XP from killing mobs.
> The main thing is that players will spend themselves broke chasing
> tiny marginal gains in performance, regardless of whether the
> economy is open or closed, or if raw material prices are fixed or
> floating.
This is only true in a situation where players have nothing better
on which to spend their money... which is inflationary in itself in
a different manner. If the only thing in the world to buy is
armor/weapons, the only value that the currency has is the
incremental performance bonus from improving their equipment. It's
either buy better equipment or the money is worthless. Money is
intrinsically worthless... it's just a number representing coins in
vault. The only value it has are the values of goods and services
that can be bought with it.
> From a purist viewpoint, DAoC's economy is inflationary, in the
> sense that players can get arbitrarily large amounts of money, and
> equipment can get arbitrarily stronger (spellcrafting and alchemy
> will have "soft failure" regions where attempts to improve an item
> can fail to take, consuming their raw material but exceeding
> normal caps when successful). But in practice the things that
> normally create inflationary pressures have been converted into
> safety valves to *prevent* inflation from becoming significant.
...
> I ain't done yet. The economy I designed included Spellcrafting,
> and has had a big hole where that belonged. Even so, the
> underlying economy in DAoC has proven fundamentally sound, and I'm
> proud of how *little* I've had to worry about it since launch.
Yeah, Spellcrafting is actually the most important component of the
DAoC trade system as it's the primary differentiator between crafted
and mob-dropped loot.
The difference between DAoC and the other MMORPGs I've played is
that 'end-game' players don't spend their time in 'income-producing'
activities... they play RvR. Since there is no monetary reward for
killing PC opponents from other realms, you don't have to worry
about those thousands and thousands of hours played on each server
every night generating more and more cash. In addition, because of
the cost of repairing keep doors, making siege weapons, and buying
ammunition, RvR is actually a money-sink with a negative currency
flow. It's a very simple, straight-forward economic model and has
supported the game model very well which is the purpose of economic
systems in MMPs.
Everything with DAoC is basically, fundamentally sound. It caters
to a specific player type and has a narrow scope of activities and
rewards that supports that group well. From a high level, it's a
series of power-ups that culminate in a massive team-based PvP
arena. Personally, I like a broader experience, but that's
OK... 200,000+ subscribers enjoy your model and that's what
counts. <grin> Some people like Italian food, some people like Thai
food, some people like burgers... that's what choice is all about.
Cheers,
Ron - Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Vincent Archer
- Crafting/Creation systems Matt Mihaly
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Brandon J. Van Every
- Crafting/Creation systems amanda@alfar.com
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems Kwon Ekstrom
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Damion Schubert
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Dave Rickey
- Crafting/Creation systems Ron Gabbard
- Crafting/Creation systems John Buehler
- Crafting/Creation systems Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s Ted L. Chen
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Vincent Archer
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s lynx@lynx.purrsia.com
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Zach Collins {Siege}
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s Travis Casey
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Amanda Walker
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Marian Griffith
- Mass customization in MM***s John Buehler
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Ron Gabbard
- Mass customization in MM***s Amanda Walker
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Sasha Hart
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Matt Mihaly
- Mass customization in MM***s Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s John Robert Arras
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Madrona Tree
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Koster, Raph
- Mass customization in MM***s Marc LaFleur
- Mass customization in MM***s Paul Boyle
- Mass customization in MM***s Damion Schubert
- Mass customization in MM***s Michael Tresca
- Mass customization in MM***s Brandon J. Van Every
- Mass customization in MM***s P.David
- NLP tools? Robert Zubek
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Edward Glowacki
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Koster, Raph
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Jeff Lindsey
- Importance of graphic in different stages of gaming Damion Schubert
- Game Convention Development Survey Casbaria
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Koster, Raph
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Derek Licciardi
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? shren
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Matt Mihaly
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Marian Griffith
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immature? Paul Schwanz
- Are gratification-based (online) societies doomed to being immatu re? Marc LaFleur
- Salon article: "Showdown in cyberspace: Star Wars vs. The Sims" Robert Zubek
- Are gratifiction-based (online) societies doomed to being immature? Jay C.
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Vladimir Cole
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK eric
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Boyle
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Vincent Archer
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK Koster, Raph
- A Question on PvP and PK Derek Licciardi
- A Question on PvP and PK Lars Duening
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK shren
- A Question on PvP and PK Dave Rickey
- A Question on PvP and PK Daniel James
- A Question on PvP and PK Sean Kelly
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Sean Kelly
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK szii@sziisoft.com
- A Question on PvP and PK Lars Duening
- A Question on PvP and PK Koster, Raph
- A Question on PvP and PK Matt Mihaly
- A Question on PvP and PK Zach Collins {Siege}
- A Question on PvP and PK Kwon Ekstrom
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK John Buehler
- A Question on PvP and PK Eli Stevens
- A Question on PvP and PK Ron Gabbard
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Schwanz
- A Question on PvP and PK Amanda Walker
- A Question on PvP and PK Jeff Lindsey
- A Question on PvP and PK Amanda Walker
- A Question on PvP and PK Sasha Hart
- A Question on PvP and PK apollyon .
- A Question on PvP and PK Sasha Hart
- A Question on PvP and PK ghovs
- A Question on PvP and PK Dave Trump
- A Question on PvP and PK Paul Boyle
- A Question on PvP and PK Damion Schubert
- A Question on PvP and PK Moonvine
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s Yannick.Jean@csst.qc.ca
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s John Buehler
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Jeff Lindsey
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s John Buehler
- Réf. : Mass customization in MM*** s Damion Schubert
- Réf. : Mass cus tomization in MM*** s Jeff Lindsey
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) shren
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) shren
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Boring Combat (was:Mass customization in MM***s) Acius
- Gamasutra plans to feature MMOGs Lars Duening
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Marian Griffith
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Greg Titus
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Sean Kelly
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Greg Titus
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) shren
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Dave Shepherd
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) John Buehler
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Travis Casey
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Jessica Mulligan
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Damion Schubert
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Koster, Raph
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) Christopher Allen
- About Fencing (was: mass customisation) John Bertoglio
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Adam
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Sie Ming
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Jeff Cole
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposition? Damion Schubert
- Crafting Systems - preventing recipe decomposit ion? Anderson, David
- Gratification-based MUDs luke@rocketship.com
- Rif. : Mass customization in MM*** s Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- EQ in mainstream news again... Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- TECH: Britt A. Green
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Sean Kelly
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Anderson, David
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) John Buehler
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Sie Ming
- Preventing recipe decomposition (why?) Derek Licciardi
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Damion Schubert
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Sara Jensen
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Matt Mihaly
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore Sasha Hart
- Gossip, fiction and tactical lore John Buehler
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Valerio Santinelli
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Zach Collins {Siege}
- java clients Kwon Ekstrom
- java clients Daniel James
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Colin Coghill
- java clients Brandon J. Van Every
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Brandon J. Van Every
- java clients Philippe Lalande
- java clients justice@softhome.net
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients David Love
- java clients Jon A. Lambert
- java clients fred@clift.org
- java clients Lars Duening
- java clients Jon A. Lambert
- java clients justice@softhome.net
- java clients David Love
- java clients Travis Casey
- java clients bruce@cubik.org
- java clients Fred Clift
- java clients Jo Dillon
- java clients Karl Bastiman
- java clients David Yazel
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients ceo
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients ceo
- java clients Christopher Kohnert
- java clients Daniel James
- java clients ceo
- java clients Matt Mihaly
- java clients ceo
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jack Britt
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Ammon Lauritzen
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sasha Hart
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Trickey, Rob
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Anderson, David
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Zach Collins {Siege}
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? shren
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Daniel.Harman@barclayscapital.com
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Mathieu Castelli
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Peter Harkins
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jack Britt
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sasha Hart
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Jo Dillon
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Bruce Mitchener
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sie Ming
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Michelle Elbert
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Paul E. Schwanz, II
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sean Kelly
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Christopher Allen
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Sage
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Travis Casey
- Alternative Hit Point Systems? Michael Tresca
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Brandon J. Van Every
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Frank Crowell
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Sasha Hart
- Creative guy seeking a MUD c_andreev@fmi.uni-sofia.bg
- Creative guy seeking a MUD Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Koster, Raph
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Brandon J. Van Every
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling Tools Ron Gabbard
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling Tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Miroslav Silovic
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Matt Mihaly
- "The Artisan's Hands" - Storytelling tools Michael Tresca
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) Travis Casey
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Lars Duening
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Marc Bowden
- remote 56K editing, especially for lpmud? Valerio Santinelli
- A question of PvP and PK Adam
- web-based MUD editing tools? Brandon J. Van Every
- web-based MUD editing tools? Kwon Ekstrom
- web-based MUD editing tools? Christopher Allen
- web-based MUD editing tools? Sanvean
- web-based MUD editing tools? John Bertoglio
- web-based MUD editing tools? zifnab@islandsofmyth.org
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) Sean Kelly
- ADMIN: List configuration changes J C Lawrence
- Hangul (was Ref. : Mass customization in MM***s) Jake Song
- Hangul (was Réf. : Mass customization in MM***s) David Kennerly
- Phonetic and Ideographic languages (was Hangul) Nathan F. Yospe
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Lars Duening
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Malcolm Tester
- portable ftpd daemon for lpmud? Brandon J. Van Every
- current portable lpmud code libraries? Brandon J. Van Every
- current portable lpmud code libraries? David Bennett